Re: sql developer vs sqlplus sql and plsql syntax

Come off it Mark. We're agile... :)

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 3:54 PM Mark W. Farnham <mwf_at_rsiz.com> wrote:

> This entire kerfuffle was in fact specified to vendors by the MOSES
> protocol published circa 1995. MOSES was Massive Open Systems Environment
> Standards. Pioneers of using UNIX on a large commercial scale founded it to
> create a semblance of order in the chaotic world of Unix. John Black of
> USWEST New Vector noted two key things: 1) From shop to shop in the MVS
> [that was a mainframe opsys from IBM] world things vary in operations by
> one or two percent, but in UNIX shops things vary from shop to shop by 50%.
> 2) The power of UNIX is that there are dozens of ways to do pretty much
> anything; the weakness of UNIX is that there are dozens of ways to do
> pretty much anything.
>
>
>
> The second one is probably not original to John. I think the first on was.
>
>
>
> The key that was envisaged by MOSES was driving once via GUI, generating a
> line operation equivalent as both a log of operations AND an editable
> execution script. Then you could edit the variables for things like
> different ip addresses and machine names and have a repeatable,
> schedulable, testable script for each machine that had been built by
> driving the GUI with all the interactive checks and hints and so forth.
>
>
>
> Sigh. Once upon a time that was a useful document, and whether or not
> vendors followed all the specifications, that one was the big deal:
> Everything you can make a change with in GUI, you can log and script.
>
>
>
> Good luck. This is important. However you handle it, you have to remember
> that eventually someone will hire an inexperienced person with limited
> intellectual horizons to push the buttons. Or an automaton will do it
> without any judgement at all.
>
>
>
> OH – and auditors deprecate material GUI actions that are not
> comprehensively logged. So it is best if the tool does it as a builtin.
>
>
>
> mwf
>
>
>
> *From:* oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:
> oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org] *On Behalf Of *Ls Cheng
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2020 6:55 AM
> *To:* William Robertson
> *Cc:* oracle-l; Jeff Smith
> *Subject:* Re: sql developer vs sqlplus sql and plsql syntax
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> I was, am and still shocked too that they never used SQLPLUS, they
> don't even know the name. And these are not junior developers, I wonder
> where they have been living...! The quality of developers nowadays......
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:25 PM William Robertson <
> william_at_williamrobertson.net> wrote:
>
> I'm frankly shocked at *"But the developers have never used SQLPLUS
> so..." * Are these not Oracle developers?
>
>
>
> Probably just making sure they "Run as script" would go most of the way,
> but obviously they really should make the effort to test it using the
> agreed deployment method.
>
>
>
> Jeff, how about a post about setting up "Run with SQL*Plus" as an external
> tool in SQL Developer? Then they would just have to press one button, if
> that's not too much effort for them.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
>
>
> On 14 Dec 2020, at 20:18, Ls Cheng <exriscer_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> but SQLCl is CLI correct?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 8:58 PM Jeff Smith <jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sure it does, SQLcl and SQLDev use the exact same script engine.
>
>
>
> *From:* Ls Cheng <exriscer_at_gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2020 2:39 PM
> *To:* Jeff Smith <jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com>
> *Cc:* Oracle Mailinglist <oracle-l_at_freelists.org>
> *Subject:* Re: sql developer vs sqlplus sql and plsql syntax
>
> Hi
>
> That does make any difference, developers wants to use GUI, not CLI
> unfortunately
>
> BR
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 5:59 PM Jeff Smith <jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> Or…ask the DBAs to meet their developers half way and start using SQLcl to
> do the pushes to prod.
>
> There are SET commands you can use to define what statement delimiters you
> want, but again, at the end of the day, if you’re not testing it exactly as
> it’s going to run in production, that’s FAIL.
>
>
>
> *From:* Ls Cheng <exriscer_at_gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2020 10:09 AM
> *To:* Jeff Smith <jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com>
> *Cc:* Oracle Mailinglist <oracle-l_at_freelists.org>
> *Subject:* Re: sql developer vs sqlplus sql and plsql syntax
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> "*If you know the DBAs are using SQL*Plus to roll out updates, then the
> developers need to USE SQL*Plus for testing their scripts. It’s that
> simple.*"
>
>
>
> Yes, that is being asked, the developers MUST test their scripts with
> SQLPLUS otherwise there is no way to automate updates. But the developers
> have never used SQLPLUS so it is very hard to ask them to move from GUI to
> CLI. So I was thinking if SQL developer could configure in such a way so
> semicolon and backslash can be forced...
>
>
>
> BR
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 2:41 PM Jeff Smith <jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> If you ever want to talk to me, feel free to contact me directly
>
> Jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com
>
>
>
> *DBA team and the developers because the developers write codes in SQL
> developer then they upload them as script for the DBA to run in the
> test/prod environment which all fails (and plsql objects not created)
> obecause DBA's uses SQLPLUS and because most SQL execution request are
> batched with SQLPLUS.*
>
>
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Bad, bad, bad. Developers and DBAs need to agree on
> the requirements for production rollouts/promoting code.
>
>
>
> If you know the DBAs are using SQL*Plus to roll out updates, then the
> developers need to USE SQL*Plus for testing their scripts. It’s that simple.
>
>
>
> The DBAs should have figured out by now what was going on and had some
> checks in place to prevent this from happening accidently. This is more of
> a communication issue than a tooling issue.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ls Cheng <exriscer_at_gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 13, 2020 1:19 PM
> *To:* Oracle Mailinglist <oracle-l_at_freelists.org>
> *Subject:* sql developer vs sqlplus sql and plsql syntax
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> This is for Jeff Smith! :-)
>
>
>
> I would like to know why SQL Developer allow people to execute SQL code
> without semicolon and PLSQL code with backslash? (OK TOAD does the same
> thing but it is not made by Oracle)
>
>
>
> For example code such as this works in SQL developer
>
>
>
> -- semicolon missing
>
> select * from dba_users
>
>
>
> -- backslash missing
>
> declare
> l_a number;
> begin
> select 1 into l_a from dual;
> end;
>
>
>
> -- backslash missing
>
> create or replace procedure p_test
> is
> l_a number;
> begin
> select 1 into l_a from dual;
> end;
>
>
>
>
>
> This is causing some serious conflicts between DBA team and the developers
> because the developers write codes in SQL developer then they upload them
> as script for the DBA to run in the test/prod environment which all fails
> (and plsql objects not created) obecause DBA's uses SQLPLUS and because
> most SQL execution request are batched with SQLPLUS.
>
>
>
> The developers claim if the code runs in SQL developer it must run in
> SQLPLUS because it is a tool from Oracle. Is there a way to configure SQL
> Developer so it can have the same behaviour as SQLPLUS?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>

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