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Home -> Community -> Mailing Lists -> Oracle-L -> Re:RE: White papers on industry trends
Val,
For a real dinosaur, try Jovial. Created by Teledyne for the USAF to "improve the performance of ECM equipment". Last used in the late 70's after a fitful 10 year lifespan. If I remember correctly there were about 50 people in the world who knew it.
As for your C code, take a serious look at what is being done. I took a number of C programs and after disecting them re-wrote then in PL/SQL and C. In the end it was a lot less code & the time to execute dropped from minutes to seconds.
Dick Goulet
____________________Reply Separator____________________ Author: Webber Valerie H <Valerie.H.Webber_at_irs.gov> Date: 4/22/2002 9:30 AM
Dick,
Thanks for the information. You make a good point about learning curve (which is a concern the client has too) and about breaking up the C code. Yes, I am a contractor with the IRS but this project was always written in C. Never in Ada.. thank goodness...
Currently the system runs on an Informix database but will be converted to Oracle since it is the new IRS system of choice. (Good move) I was just concerned that keeping the C would be keeping a dinosaur in the backyard out of fear of a learning curve. We have the time to convert it and deal with the learning curve. The C code is pretty much spaghetti code after 17 years of band-aids and duct tape. It desperately needs to be reworked/redesigned not to mention adding Pro*C. We have a sister project that chucked all their C code and rewrote everything in Java. It was tough but the payoff was great.
We may have to decide on a module-by-module basis. Ada... now there's a dinosaur if I ever heard of one... :)
Val
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 10:33 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Valerie,
C is still a very heavily used language, although for a complete
application
I'd probably want to use a C++ variant since they come with screen painter
tools. Migrating from C to Forms/Reports would not be unthinkable, but
don't
underestimate the learning curve. As far as eliminating the external
procedure
call, if that's the way the application is written, then your stuck and no
it
will not be eliminated. What may then be more efficient is to take that C
code
& break it up into what is database only and what is C only. Then re-code
the
application as PL/SQL (or stored Java if your so inclined) keeping in pure C
only that which cannot be done otherwise.
The industry trend I would have to say is headed towards thin clients
and
three tier applications which serve internal and external customers and
Java.
While I agree with the trend in many cases there are too many times that the
trend does not really fit the needs. In many a case we end up just moving
the
bottle neck from one place to the other & sometimes making it worse. Case
in
point is PeopleSoft. There is a panel in the stock room maintenance that
updates several tables and rows. Now that is a two tier problem since a lot
of
data is moving from the server to the client, being processed, and then sent
back. But we can id the bottleneck here in that the end user NEEDS a beefy
PC.
Now you move that into a three tier mess & the bottle neck gets harder to
find
since data moves from the database to the app server, to the client, gets
processed & sent back to the apps server which does more processing, and
then
back to the database. Result, you still need the beefy PC on the client
side,
but you almost need a one to one setup on the app server as well. So then
each
client actually needs two beefy PC's to do the job in a reasonable manner.
YUCK!! Who said thin client was easier & cheaper? Must have been some
ignorant
sales droid at the app server vendor.
I note that your address is with the IRS, has the idea of doing Ada
cropped
up yet? OH, bad joke, it's suppose to be the government's "standard
programing
language" as declared by Congress back in the 80's. Then, PL/SQL is the Son
of
Ada!!
Dick Goulet
____________________Reply Separator____________________ Author: Webber Valerie H <Valerie.H.Webber_at_irs.gov> Date: 4/22/2002 5:28 AM
Are there any white papers on industry trends for architecture including programming languages. I'm working on a project that is in the early stages of a redesign. The current application uses C code entirely including user interface. The client is sold on Oracle Forms/Reports but is reluctant to trash the C code and start from scratch. This is the first such redesign in 17 years.
Does a 3 tier architecture using iAS minimize or eliminate the cost in performance of the external procedure call to the C program from a stored procedure?
Any information will be helpful...
Thank in advance,
Val
Valerie H. Webber
Management Systems Designers, Inc
Database Administrator
valerie.h.webber_at_irs.gov
704-566-5321
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<BODY>
<P><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic Sans MS">Are there any white papers on
industry trends for architecture including programming languages. I'm
working on
a project that is in the early stages of a redesign. The current application
uses C code entirely including user interface. The client is sold on Oracle
Forms/Reports but is reluctant to trash the C code and start from scratch.
This
is the first such redesign in 17 years.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic Sans MS">Does a 3 tier architecture
using
iAS minimize or eliminate the cost in performance of the external procedure
call
to the C program from a stored procedure?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic Sans MS">Any information will be
helpful...</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic Sans MS">Thank in advance,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic Sans MS">Val</FONT>
</P>
<P><B><FONT COLOR="#800080" FACE="Georgia">Valerie H. Webber</FONT></B><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#800080" FACE="Georgia">Management Systems Designers,
Inc</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#800080" FACE="Georgia">Database Administrator<BR>
valerie.h.webber_at_irs.gov<BR>
704-566-5321 </FONT>
</P>
<BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>
-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: dgoulet_at_vicr.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).Received on Mon Apr 22 2002 - 17:18:40 CDT
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Dick,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Thanks for the information. You make a good point about learning
curve (which is a concern the client has too) and about breaking up the C code. Yes, I am a contractor with the IRS but this project was always written in C. Never in Ada.. thank goodness...</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Currently the system runs on an Informix database but will be
converted to Oracle since it is the new IRS system of choice. (Good move) I was just concerned that keeping the C would be keeping a dinosaur in the backyard out of fear of a learning curve. We have the time to convert it and deal with the learning curve. The C code is pretty much spaghetti code after 17 years of band-aids and duct tape. It desperately needs to be reworked/redesigned not to mention adding Pro*C. We have a sister project that chucked all their C code and rewrote everything in Java. It was tough but the payoff was great.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>We may have to decide on a module-by-module basis. Ada... now
there's a dinosaur if I ever heard of one... :)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Val</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: dgoulet_at_vicr.com [<A
HREF="mailto:dgoulet_at_vicr.com">mailto:dgoulet_at_vicr.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 10:33 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re:White papers on industry trends</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Valerie,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> C is still a very heavily used language,
although for a complete application</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>I'd probably want to use a C++ variant since they come with
screen painter</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>tools. Migrating from C to Forms/Reports would not be
unthinkable, but don't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>underestimate the learning curve. As far as eliminating
the external procedure</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>call, if that's the way the application is written, then your
stuck and no it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>will not be eliminated. What may then be more efficient
is to take that C code</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>& break it up into what is database only and what is C
only. Then re-code the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>application as PL/SQL (or stored Java if your so inclined)
keeping in pure C</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>only that which cannot be done otherwise.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> The industry trend I would have to say is
headed towards thin clients and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>three tier applications which serve internal and external
customers and Java. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>While I agree with the trend in many cases there are too many
times that the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>trend does not really fit the needs. In many a case we
end up just moving the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>bottle neck from one place to the other & sometimes making
it worse. Case in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>point is PeopleSoft. There is a panel in the stock room
maintenance that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>updates several tables and rows. Now that is a two tier
problem since a lot of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>data is moving from the server to the client, being processed,
and then sent</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>back. But we can id the bottleneck here in that the end
user NEEDS a beefy PC. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Now you move that into a three tier mess & the bottle neck
gets harder to find</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>since data moves from the database to the app server, to the
client, gets</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>processed & sent back to the apps server which does more
processing, and then</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>back to the database. Result, you still need the beefy PC
on the client side,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>but you almost need a one to one setup on the app server as
well. So then each</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>client actually needs two beefy PC's to do the job in a
reasonable manner. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>YUCK!! Who said thin client was easier &
cheaper? Must have been some ignorant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>sales droid at the app server vendor.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> I note that your address is with the IRS, has
the idea of doing Ada cropped</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>up yet? OH, bad joke, it's suppose to be the government's
"standard programing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>language" as declared by Congress back in the 80's.
Then, PL/SQL is the Son of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Ada!!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Dick Goulet</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>____________________Reply Separator____________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Author: Webber Valerie H
<Valerie.H.Webber_at_irs.gov></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Date: 4/22/2002 5:28
AM</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Are there any white papers on industry trends for architecture
including</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>programming languages. I'm working on a project that is in the
early stages</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>of a redesign. The current application uses C code entirely
including user</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>interface. The client is sold on Oracle Forms/Reports but is
reluctant to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>trash the C code and start from scratch. This is the first such
redesign in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>17 years.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Does a 3 tier architecture using iAS minimize or eliminate the
cost in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>performance of the external procedure call to the C program
from a stored</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>procedure?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Any information will be helpful...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Thank in advance,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Val</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Valerie H. Webber </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Management Systems Designers, Inc</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Database Administrator </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>valerie.h.webber_at_irs.gov </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>704-566-5321 </FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
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3.2//EN"></FONT>
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CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"></FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=2><TITLE>White papers on industry
trends</TITLE></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2></HEAD></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2><BODY></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2><P><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic
Sans MS">Are there any white papers on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>industry trends for architecture including programming
languages. I'm working on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>a project that is in the early stages of a redesign. The
current application</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>uses C code entirely including user interface. The client is
sold on Oracle</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Forms/Reports but is reluctant to trash the C code and start
from scratch. This</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>is the first such redesign in 17
years.</FONT></P></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2><P><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic
Sans MS">Does a 3 tier architecture using</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>iAS minimize or eliminate the cost in performance of the
external procedure call</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to the C program from a stored
procedure?</FONT></P></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2><P><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic
Sans MS">Any information will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>helpful...</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2><BR><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic
Sans MS">Thank in advance,</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2><BR><FONT COLOR="#000080" FACE="Comic
Sans MS">Val</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2></P></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2><P><B><FONT COLOR="#800080"
FACE="Georgia">Valerie H. Webber</FONT></B><BR></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2><FONT COLOR="#800080"
FACE="Georgia">Management Systems Designers, Inc</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2><BR><FONT COLOR="#800080"
FACE="Georgia">Database Administrator<BR></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>valerie.h.webber_at_irs.gov<BR></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>704-566-5321 </FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2></P></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2><BR></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2></BODY></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2></HTML></FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=2> INET: dgoulet_at_vicr.com</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Fat City Network Services -- (858)
538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051</FONT>
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