Re: Multiple-Attribute Keys and 1NF
From: Bob Badour <bbadour_at_pei.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:12:36 -0300
Message-ID: <46d71656$0$4050$9a566e8b_at_news.aliant.net>
>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>On Aug 30, 5:00 pm, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Aug 30, 2:55 pm, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>On Aug 30, 1:44 pm, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>On Aug 30, 1:42 am, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Write a predicate for the relation schema that when extentially quantified
>>>>>>>>>>>>and extended yields a set of atomic formulae that implies all three of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>propositions above. I think you'll find that the colour-code concept is in
>>>>>>>>>>>>that predicate.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I agree. I hold little stock with set based values so in RM I would go
>>>>>>>>>>>for the addition of colour-code foreign key.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>But what if we weren't tied to a traditional relational schema and
>>>>>>>>>>>tweaked the system so it could allow propositions with more than one
>>>>>>>>>>>role of the same name without decomposing them. As Jan pointed out
>>>>>>>>>>>'tuples' are no longer functions - they would be unrestricted binary
>>>>>>>>>>>relations (subsets of attribute x values). We could produce a
>>>>>>>>>>>comparatively simpler and less cluttered schema, predicate in a very
>>>>>>>>>>>similar manner as before, and with a few simple alterations could have
>>>>>>>>>>>an equally effective WHERE mechanism. My concern however would be the
>>>>>>>>>>>consequences to JOIN.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>What would you offer in place of the RM's logical identity.
>>
>>>>>>>>>Nothing. I am utterly convinced by Date et al's arguments in favour of
>>>>>>>>>logical identity. (Why would I need to replace it?) I just wanna model
>>>>>>>>>propositions, and they are always identified by their contents.
>>
>>>>>>>>In: {{(Color: green), (Color: yellow), (Type: earth)}}
>>
>>>>>>>>What provides logical identity?
>>
>>>>>>>I may be misunderstanding you, but let me take a stab. The identity of
>>>>>>>any set of course lies in its elements (i.e. in this of a single
>>>>>>>propositions, the ordered pairs). Given we know Colors are the
>>>>>>>antecedents in the proposition we are modelling, this has to be been
>>>>>>>defined in the collectivizing predicate for the whole collection of
>>>>>>>rows. We also know therefore there may not exist another set of pairs
>>>>>>>containing the same Colors, so we can identify the whole proposition
>>>>>>>through examination of just those roles. All works just as per normal
>>>>>>>in RM. Is this what you meant?
>>
>>>>>>I haven't got a clue what you said.
>>
>>>>>I just regurgitated leibniz identity.
>>
>>>>>>In the RM, every value is uniquely
>>>>>>identifiable by the combination of relation name, attribute name and any
>>>>>>candidate key value. That's logical identity as it was originally
>>>>>>spelled out.
>>
>>>>>>Two values above have the same attribute name.
>>
>>>>>Now you've lost me. A "value" is not identifiable by its relation name
>>>>>and attribute name. This makes no sense to me. Where in predicate
>>>>>logic does that come from? A value is just a value. It is identifiable
>>>>>in its own right as being an individual from a domain.
>>
>>>>I mispoke. "Any value represented in a relvar"
>>
>>>Well it is still just a value whether its in a relvar or not - it
>>>needs no extra identity. A database table is just a set of
>>>propositions. A proposition is encoded as a set of attribute-value
>>>pairs. That's it surely?
>>
>>>Any notion of identity is as defined by set theory.
>>
>>>>>An individual piece of /data/ however (which is perhaps what you mean
>>>>>by a value) has an identity made up of a combination of an attribute
>>>>>name and a corresponding value. One needs both to identify the data
>>>>>item. A proposition in turn is identifiable by its contents, which is
>>>>>a set of those data items. Regards, J.
>>
>>>>I repeat: two pieces of data have the same name, Color.
>>
>>>Well no - a piece of data doesn't have a 'name' does it? It's just a
>>>combination of attribute and value. The number-7. name-Fred. color-
>>>red. A datum's identity is defined by the /combination/ of these two
>>>parts, and that alone - not by a label, or an alias, or an OID (as I'm
>>>sure you'd agree).
>>
>>No, I don't agree. I suggest you see the definition of Logical Identity
>>in Codd's 12 rules.
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:12:36 -0300
Message-ID: <46d71656$0$4050$9a566e8b_at_news.aliant.net>
JOG wrote:
> On Aug 30, 6:33 pm, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote: >
>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>On Aug 30, 5:00 pm, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Aug 30, 2:55 pm, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>On Aug 30, 1:44 pm, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>On Aug 30, 1:42 am, Bob Badour <bbad..._at_pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>JOG wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Write a predicate for the relation schema that when extentially quantified
>>>>>>>>>>>>and extended yields a set of atomic formulae that implies all three of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>propositions above. I think you'll find that the colour-code concept is in
>>>>>>>>>>>>that predicate.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I agree. I hold little stock with set based values so in RM I would go
>>>>>>>>>>>for the addition of colour-code foreign key.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>But what if we weren't tied to a traditional relational schema and
>>>>>>>>>>>tweaked the system so it could allow propositions with more than one
>>>>>>>>>>>role of the same name without decomposing them. As Jan pointed out
>>>>>>>>>>>'tuples' are no longer functions - they would be unrestricted binary
>>>>>>>>>>>relations (subsets of attribute x values). We could produce a
>>>>>>>>>>>comparatively simpler and less cluttered schema, predicate in a very
>>>>>>>>>>>similar manner as before, and with a few simple alterations could have
>>>>>>>>>>>an equally effective WHERE mechanism. My concern however would be the
>>>>>>>>>>>consequences to JOIN.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>What would you offer in place of the RM's logical identity.
>>
>>>>>>>>>Nothing. I am utterly convinced by Date et al's arguments in favour of
>>>>>>>>>logical identity. (Why would I need to replace it?) I just wanna model
>>>>>>>>>propositions, and they are always identified by their contents.
>>
>>>>>>>>In: {{(Color: green), (Color: yellow), (Type: earth)}}
>>
>>>>>>>>What provides logical identity?
>>
>>>>>>>I may be misunderstanding you, but let me take a stab. The identity of
>>>>>>>any set of course lies in its elements (i.e. in this of a single
>>>>>>>propositions, the ordered pairs). Given we know Colors are the
>>>>>>>antecedents in the proposition we are modelling, this has to be been
>>>>>>>defined in the collectivizing predicate for the whole collection of
>>>>>>>rows. We also know therefore there may not exist another set of pairs
>>>>>>>containing the same Colors, so we can identify the whole proposition
>>>>>>>through examination of just those roles. All works just as per normal
>>>>>>>in RM. Is this what you meant?
>>
>>>>>>I haven't got a clue what you said.
>>
>>>>>I just regurgitated leibniz identity.
>>
>>>>>>In the RM, every value is uniquely
>>>>>>identifiable by the combination of relation name, attribute name and any
>>>>>>candidate key value. That's logical identity as it was originally
>>>>>>spelled out.
>>
>>>>>>Two values above have the same attribute name.
>>
>>>>>Now you've lost me. A "value" is not identifiable by its relation name
>>>>>and attribute name. This makes no sense to me. Where in predicate
>>>>>logic does that come from? A value is just a value. It is identifiable
>>>>>in its own right as being an individual from a domain.
>>
>>>>I mispoke. "Any value represented in a relvar"
>>
>>>Well it is still just a value whether its in a relvar or not - it
>>>needs no extra identity. A database table is just a set of
>>>propositions. A proposition is encoded as a set of attribute-value
>>>pairs. That's it surely?
>>
>>>Any notion of identity is as defined by set theory.
>>
>>>>>An individual piece of /data/ however (which is perhaps what you mean
>>>>>by a value) has an identity made up of a combination of an attribute
>>>>>name and a corresponding value. One needs both to identify the data
>>>>>item. A proposition in turn is identifiable by its contents, which is
>>>>>a set of those data items. Regards, J.
>>
>>>>I repeat: two pieces of data have the same name, Color.
>>
>>>Well no - a piece of data doesn't have a 'name' does it? It's just a
>>>combination of attribute and value. The number-7. name-Fred. color-
>>>red. A datum's identity is defined by the /combination/ of these two
>>>parts, and that alone - not by a label, or an alias, or an OID (as I'm
>>>sure you'd agree).
>>
>>No, I don't agree. I suggest you see the definition of Logical Identity
>>in Codd's 12 rules.
> > Well, I have to contest again - you are no doubt referring to "rule > 2:The guaranteed access rule", and that makes no reference to the term > identity (...and that is what you asked me about.) Rule 2 is stating : > "every individual value in the database must be logically addressable > by specifying the name of the table, the name of the column and the > primary key value of the containing row." > > Logically "addressable" - that's a very different kettle of fish to > identity. In your original question did you mean to ask then: "What > provides logical addressibality?" if one has two attributes playing > the same role? I won't respond to that in advance, because I don't > want to put words into your mouth. Regards, J.
Yes. If you prefer, "logical addressibility". The term I have known for quite some time is "logical identity", but if you prefer, we can call it "logical addressibility". Received on Thu Aug 30 2007 - 21:12:36 CEST