Re: Fed Up with being a DBA

Comments interspersed.

Noons wrote:

>"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan_at_x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:1063489383.106414_at_yasure...
>
>
>>I disagree. We have people here whose experience is all v7 and 8.0 and
>>they are essentially unemployable. About as likely to find a job as
>>someone with Algol or RPG II. Well perhaps a bit better but not much.
>>
>>
>
>Well, I can say one thing: any employer that throws away an experienced
>8.0 dba is an idiot.
>

I'm not disagreeing ... just stating it as it is.

>This industry MUST move away from the "expert in
>one version" model, sooner rather than later. Anyone with years of experience
>in Oracle PERIOD is to me eminently employable.
>
>The notion that knowledge of a specific version of software defines a level of
>competency in an entire field of knowledge is abhorrent, incorrect and stupid.
>
>Sorry, I know you are in the market of pushing "rolling education", but this is
>the truth.
>

Except that when you have a stack of 100 resumes on your desk ... and 20 have 9i experience and don't give you a blank stare when you say UNDO and LMT guess who gets the job?

With 10g on the market ... if one person understands regular expressions and shredding XML into nested tables and the other doesn't guess who gets the job.

Any person with access to the internet and five minutes can create a table and write an insert statement. Heck my mother can write an insert statement and she's well into her 80s. But my students can all sit down and build a database with DBMS_RLS, DDL triggers, bulk binding, etc. My mother is not going to get the job. ;-) Oh well. Sorry mom.

>I see no proof whatsoever anywhere that the unemployment has ANYTHING to do with
>the level of software one uses or knows about. There was an attempt to do that
>here a few years ago, but everyone just basically laughed it off and it died.
>

That is where you are ... not where I am. Open yourself to the possibility that the West Coast of the US is not Oz. To which, I expect most of your countrymen and women are offering a small prayer of thanks.

>Of course, if you are out there learning Algol you may have a problem finding
>a job. But that is NOT version driven, it's product driven. The two are NOT the same.
>
>
>>Of course. My point was that the jobs that remain ... are going to those
>>with the best and most current experience.
>>
>>"Best experience" is the longest. "Current" is incompatible with that notion.
>>
>>
>>I wasn't engaging in FUD ...
>>
>>
>It certainly sounded like that. My apologies.
>

I only do that when I get paid for it. ;-)

>
>
>>after all ... what are the chances you, or anyone else is flying to
>>Seattle to attend a university? Zero!
>>
>>
>
>Hehehe! Not that I wouldn't wish... :D
>

I think you can still get education visas if you aren't from certain parts of the planet. ;-) Come on up.

>>But they can learn it and enhance their chances of finding a job that
>>isn't brain-dead.
>>
>>
>
>Hmmm, I don't know to which extent Oracle hasn't transformed the DBA
>job into a brain-dead job... They certainly have tried hard.
>

They are trying to compete with the claim that Oracle is too hard to manage. It has hurt their sales. Of course so has their pricing but I believe that too will be addressed with the release of 10g. Larry has a fiduciary responsibility to his stockholders ... I don't.

>>Shot a few DBAs perhaps. But I don't think Larry is ordering the dinner
>>salad because he can not longer affor the Ceasar's.
>>
>>
>
>
>It will take time, of course. But it will happen. The signs are all
>over the place. Attend a few user group meetings. Not the ones
>with all the fanfare of Oracle or TUSC. The ones promoted by low budget local
>organizations. Then listen. I've never seen anything like it since
>the days of moving away from mainframes. It's bad. The sooner Oracle
>wakes up and realizes it, the better. I'm not even sure it isn't
>just too late. And as you are probably aware, I don't scare easy.
>

It is definitely not too late. And I suspect all it will take is Larry sacrificing some short-term profits to regain market share. I've heard rumors of a new pricing structure for 10g but I know nothing other than rumors. If the price comes down ... the gloves come off.

>>Nothing in our industry is static. If it was I'd still be banging out
>>Fortran IV on punchcards.
>>
>>
>
>
>did you know Fortran is still WIDELY used in scientific circles, in the
>form of thousands of math libraries? Try to do some long-precision work
>and it will crop up! Of course, not Fortran IV: a bit later than that. :D
>

A few years back I was working on a project where we used Fortran with Oracle so yes. But I never once admitted I'd spent six years writing it for fear they might ask me to help out.

>>The DBAs job has changed. It
>>seems to me Oracle is changing the definition such that the skill set
>>now includes 9iAS, SOAP, XML, etc. Just as developers
>>must learn CBO ... DBAs can no longer sit back and assume that
>>installation, configuration, backup and restore are enough
>>to keep hauling in the paychecks.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I've been saying that for 7-8 years now. I'm glad it finally is being
>accepted. The "DBA" role is long gone. We are just seeing now the
>death throws of the traditional model. But once again: that has NOTHING to
>do with which version of software people use.
>

If you'd stop saying things I disagree with we could end this thread. It has a lot to do with version. Take, for example, the various TARGETs introduced with 9i. They very definitely change the DBAs job. I attended a seminary earlier this year in Vancouver BC with George Trujillo of Trubix and the folks from Computer Associates. A room full of at least 50-100 DBAs. George asked how many people were familiar with the various TARGET_ADVICE views. Five or six hands went into the air. That is only 10%. The others hadn't a clue what he was talking about. You could see in their faces.

>>Version is definitely part of the picture here and all I can speak of is
>>the situation here. Employers just are not interested in people whose
>>experience is on older versions.
>>
>>
>
>I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. Versions mean next to nothing
>here and so they shouldn't. Of course, a V5 DBA might have a slight problem.
>But a 7 or 8 DBA is still employable. What it won't be is for a "glamour"
>job with heaps of moolah pouring. Neither would it be if he/she was trained in
>9i and all that jazz. It has all to do with the changing of the role.
>Nothing to do with the version.
>
>And note that the CIO you mentioned made no reference whatsoever to old
>versions: he just said it was easy to find competent people. Which is true.
>
>
>
>>Short-sighted focus on short-term profitability?
>>
>>
>
>That's as good as any, I suppose. LOL!
>
>
>
>>You keep saying that. But I am called in by employers to review resumes,
>>interview candidates, and suggest
>>former students for positions: Just had one from a local phone company
>>do that with me Friday. His exact
>>words ... "I want someone that knows Oracle 9i, knows Solaris, and knows
>>billing systems." If I brought him
>>someone with 8.0.4 experience I'd be risking my own relationship with
>>his company.
>>
>>
>
>That person might find it hard to get someone. They may have to pay
>extra if they want THAT specific a set of skills. And one day their
>accountants will ask the question: why do we need to pay for this level of
>knowledge when "CLICK-COMMS" down the road has outsourced everything to
>Outer Mongolians with V7 knowledge and is doing as well as we are thank you
>very much? Then, the proverbial will hit the fan. Like I said: here, we've been
>through all that for years now.
>

He may have to pay extra. And my guess is that he will for the right person. But that sentiment is not uncommon. The wanting of the skills ... not the paying of more money. Go to http://www.dice.com and search for Oracle jobs in Seattle. Look at the requirement lists. And these people are serious about what they expect to get and they are getting it.

>>Don't get me started on all the people that pay huge amounts of money to
>>Oracle and then use 1/10th the functionality they paid for because they
>>don't even know what is in the package they purchased.
>>
>>
>
>THAT is a HUGE part of the problem...
>

And probably the place that I fault Oracle more than any other. Oracle does a fascinating job of keeping the world thinking it is a one product company and that all it has to sell is columns and rows on steroids.

I routinely ask my new students to name the products Oracle sells. Out of 30 students, and these aren't 20 year olds, these are people with 5-10+ years industry experience and CS degrees. Five or six will have heard of either something called Forms or something called Financials ... that's it. As them to name what else is int he database other than columns and rows and usually you just get people looking at you like you just stepped off a saucer from Mars.

>>Some people will likely stay on 7.x forever. Ask Sybrand ... he seems to
>>know a few of them. ;-)
>>
>>
>
>If they need nothing more, then it's fine. I'm sorry, but I'm totally
>pragmatic on this. Upgrade for upgrade's sake is worth nothing.
>

I agree from the standpoint of the company. Provided they don't keep upgrading operating systems and tools and trying to make it all work together. But from the standpoint of the poor sod that needs to bring home a paycheck to pay the mortgage and put the kids through college ... it is not serving his/her interests which should be to stay right on the cutting edge.

>>not moving to the CBO. Oracle has made their decision and it isn't going
>>to be recinded.
>>
>>
>
>Wanna bet? ;)
>
>

Yeh. Right after I get them to put client-server back into Forms which I consider one of the all time braindead decisions.

>>History teaches that in this industry those that don't
>>stay current end up flipping burgers. So out of vested self-interest
>>developers should made sure they stay current just as an attorney
>>(barrister) that is not familiar with the latest law decrees is of
>>limited value.
>>
>>
>
>I think most do that already, Daniel.
>

I'll have to respectfully disagree. And I could introduce you to large numbers, just in this one metropolitan area, that don't. I was working on a project last year where I was helping two DBAs, each with more than 5 year experience install and set up Oracle on a new Solaris server. They looked at my DDL for CREATE DATABASE and asked me what this "uniform extents" thing was. Turns out they hadn't even heard of LMTs. And that is not that unusual.

> That's why we have people around
>who started on mainframes who nowadays can dismantle and re-assemble a PC
>with the best of them, or are perfectly capable of holding their ground
>in any of the latest technologies. If they weren't capable of doing so,
>they would have ended up flipping burgers like you say, ages ago.
>And rightly so.
>
>However, as long as they can bring in bacon instead of burgers with
>what they already know and they can learn new versions from manuals,
>they won't be about forking out huge wads of cash to become certified in
>ONE (1) version. No matter what kind of salad Larry might be up to.
>
>
>
>>Those poor sods should (A) convince management to replace the garbage,
>>
>>
>
>Not an option. If they convince management to replace the garbage,
>management will look elsewehere other than Oracle. And THEN they will
>be totally out of a job. Do you think they are mad enough to shoot
>themselves in the foot? No way!
>

I was presenting options.

>>(B) find another job,
>>
>>
>
>Been happening in droves for the last 3 years. At least here. Thank God
>for that, we've weeded out heaps of hopeless people who should NEVER
>have been in IT.
>
>
>
>>(C) say
>>Kaching every time they cash their paycheck and spend their spare time
>>doing something fun like sailing
>>and skiing.
>>
>>
>
>That is good. It stimulates the economy! You can't have a consumer
>economy without consumers to make it work...
>
>
>
>
>>I have plenty of local companies with canned apps that send students to
>>the U. They do so because they
>>sooner or later discover that they have business needs the canned app
>>can't handle. It starts with a report
>>or two ... it ends up with needing competent developers.
>>
>>
>
>
>Wanna bet some of them will soon start looking at other options other
>than Oracle's?
>
>

Keep in mind I live within five miles of the Microsoft Campus and teach in a building named Mary Gates Hall (named by Bill after his mother) and the next building over is the Paul G. Allen building. If anywhere on this planet there was a pressure to drop Oracle it would be here. Yet that is not what is happening.

-- 
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan_at_x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)