Re: Fed Up with being a DBA

"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan_at_x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:1063489383.106414_at_yasure...

> I disagree. We have people here whose experience is all v7 and 8.0 and
> they are essentially unemployable. About as likely to find a job as
> someone with Algol or RPG II. Well perhaps a bit better but not much.

Well, I can say one thing: any employer that throws away an experienced 8.0 dba is an idiot. This industry MUST move away from the "expert in one version" model, sooner rather than later. Anyone with years of experience in Oracle PERIOD is to me eminently employable.

The notion that knowledge of a specific version of software defines a level of competency in an entire field of knowledge is abhorrent, incorrect and stupid.

Sorry, I know you are in the market of pushing "rolling education", but this is the truth.

I see no proof whatsoever anywhere that the unemployment has ANYTHING to do with the level of software one uses or knows about. There was an attempt to do that here a few years ago, but everyone just basically laughed it off and it died.

Of course, if you are out there learning Algol you may have a problem finding a job. But that is NOT version driven, it's product driven. The two are NOT the same.

> >
> Of course. My point was that the jobs that remain ... are going to those
> with the best and most current experience.

"Best experience" is the longest. "Current" is incompatible with that notion.

> I wasn't engaging in FUD ...

It certainly sounded like that. My apologies.

> after all ... what are the chances you, or anyone else is flying to
> Seattle to attend a university? Zero!

Hehehe! Not that I wouldn't wish... :D

> But they can learn it and enhance their chances of finding a job that
> isn't brain-dead.

Hmmm, I don't know to which extent Oracle hasn't transformed the DBA job into a brain-dead job... They certainly have tried hard.

> >
> Shot a few DBAs perhaps. But I don't think Larry is ordering the dinner
> salad because he can not longer affor the Ceasar's.

It will take time, of course. But it will happen. The signs are all over the place. Attend a few user group meetings. Not the ones with all the fanfare of Oracle or TUSC. The ones promoted by low budget local organizations. Then listen. I've never seen anything like it since the days of moving away from mainframes. It's bad. The sooner Oracle wakes up and realizes it, the better. I'm not even sure it isn't just too late. And as you are probably aware, I don't scare easy.

> Nothing in our industry is static. If it was I'd still be banging out
> Fortran IV on punchcards.

did you know Fortran is still WIDELY used in scientific circles, in the form of thousands of math libraries? Try to do some long-precision work and it will crop up! Of course, not Fortran IV: a bit later than that. :D

> The DBAs job has changed. It
> seems to me Oracle is changing the definition such that the skill set
> now includes 9iAS, SOAP, XML, etc. Just as developers
> must learn CBO ... DBAs can no longer sit back and assume that
> installation, configuration, backup and restore are enough
> to keep hauling in the paychecks.
>

I've been saying that for 7-8 years now. I'm glad it finally is being accepted. The "DBA" role is long gone. We are just seeing now the death throws of the traditional model. But once again: that has NOTHING to do with which version of software people use.

> Version is definitely part of the picture here and all I can speak of is
> the situation here. Employers just are not interested in people whose
> experience is on older versions.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. Versions mean next to nothing here and so they shouldn't. Of course, a V5 DBA might have a slight problem. But a 7 or 8 DBA is still employable. What it won't be is for a "glamour" job with heaps of moolah pouring. Neither would it be if he/she was trained in 9i and all that jazz. It has all to do with the changing of the role. Nothing to do with the version.

And note that the CIO you mentioned made no reference whatsoever to old versions: he just said it was easy to find competent people. Which is true.

> Short-sighted focus on short-term profitability?

That's as good as any, I suppose. LOL!

> You keep saying that. But I am called in by employers to review resumes,
> interview candidates, and suggest
> former students for positions: Just had one from a local phone company
> do that with me Friday. His exact
> words ... "I want someone that knows Oracle 9i, knows Solaris, and knows
> billing systems." If I brought him
> someone with 8.0.4 experience I'd be risking my own relationship with
> his company.

That person might find it hard to get someone. They may have to pay extra if they want THAT specific a set of skills. And one day their accountants will ask the question: why do we need to pay for this level of knowledge when "CLICK-COMMS" down the road has outsourced everything to Outer Mongolians with V7 knowledge and is doing as well as we are thank you very much? Then, the proverbial will hit the fan. Like I said: here, we've been through all that for years now.

> >
> Don't get me started on all the people that pay huge amounts of money to
> Oracle and then use 1/10th the functionality they paid for because they
> don't even know what is in the package they purchased.

THAT is a HUGE part of the problem...

> Some people will likely stay on 7.x forever. Ask Sybrand ... he seems to
> know a few of them. ;-)

If they need nothing more, then it's fine. I'm sorry, but I'm totally pragmatic on this. Upgrade for upgrade's sake is worth nothing.

> not moving to the CBO. Oracle has made their decision and it isn't going
> to be recinded.

Wanna bet? ;)

> History teaches that in this industry those that don't
> stay current end up flipping burgers. So out of vested self-interest
> developers should made sure they stay current just as an attorney
> (barrister) that is not familiar with the latest law decrees is of
> limited value.

I think most do that already, Daniel. That's why we have people around who started on mainframes who nowadays can dismantle and re-assemble a PC with the best of them, or are perfectly capable of holding their ground in any of the latest technologies. If they weren't capable of doing so, they would have ended up flipping burgers like you say, ages ago. And rightly so.

However, as long as they can bring in bacon instead of burgers with what they already know and they can learn new versions from manuals, they won't be about forking out huge wads of cash to become certified in ONE (1) version. No matter what kind of salad Larry might be up to.

> Those poor sods should (A) convince management to replace the garbage,

Not an option. If they convince management to replace the garbage, management will look elsewehere other than Oracle. And THEN they will be totally out of a job. Do you think they are mad enough to shoot themselves in the foot? No way!

> (B) find another job,

Been happening in droves for the last 3 years. At least here. Thank God for that, we've weeded out heaps of hopeless people who should NEVER have been in IT.

> (C) say
> Kaching every time they cash their paycheck and spend their spare time
> doing something fun like sailing
> and skiing.

That is good. It stimulates the economy! You can't have a consumer economy without consumers to make it work...

> I have plenty of local companies with canned apps that send students to
> the U. They do so because they
> sooner or later discover that they have business needs the canned app
> can't handle. It starts with a report
> or two ... it ends up with needing competent developers.

Wanna bet some of them will soon start looking at other options other than Oracle's?

-- 
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wizofoz2k_at_yahoo.com.au.nospam