RE: Oracle's Updates Subscription Service

From: Mohan, Ross <MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:47:48 -0800
Message-ID: <F001.002C1704.20010301132041@fatcity.com>

Walt,

Love
that last line. But, i'll resist the temptation to bite the bait.

For
you other stuff, i've embedded some newbie comments below...stuff you've likely seen, heard, or thought about before.

thx

Ross

-----Original Message-----From: Weaver, Walt [mailto:wweaver_at_rightnow.com]Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 3:27 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Oracle's Updates Subscription Service
<FONT

 size=2>It's the transaction/activity rate that causes MySQL to go in the tank. Our products are web applications and some of our hosted sites see hundreds of thousands of hits a day. There are a few tables in our main application that are constantly being updated by each hit (web page request). Since MySQL has table-level locking only, performance can tank during peak periods.
<FONT

 size=2>
<FONT

 size=2>|| Can mild db/application changes be made to "spread the pain"? e.g. instead of updating "THE" , "order" table,
<FONT

 size=2> add a key ( or use an
 existing one!) to manually partition the table by date...by region...by product type....by
<FONT

 size=2> order type...by
 *customer*.....or by more than one of the preceding....then, "after hours", you can coalesce all
<FONT

 size=2> the "region"
 tables back into one big grandaddy.

<FONT

 size=2>
<FONT

 size=2>OR
<FONT

 size=2>
<FONT

 size=2>|| if it really is just a few tables, have you thoroughly investigated Solid State Disk? You can get some
<FONT

 size=2> incredible speed ups
 there....at a minimum, it can buy you time to do your app/db tweaks....
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>
 In
 addition, since MySQL has no concept of a transaction or rollback, data corruption is a constant problem. 
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>|| Huh?
 Semantic corruption due to lack of developer transaction control is one thing. Actual, physical corruption
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>is a CONTROLLER or DISK problem. Or izzit something else? Your developers should be able to manage
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>transactions on the client, hell, all Oracle does is put x-action control in the db so the developers need to
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>think less ( "less", not "not at all") about it...... If you are talking about a hardware problem, you gotta fix
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>that...if it is semantic..i.e. code stepping on 'in flight' data, have a real sit down with your developers.....
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>
<FONT

 size=2> We have a cron job
 that runs isamchk on a regular basis for our larger customers to try and nip the corruption problems in the bud. Nevertheless, our Hosting Sysadmins spend a good portion of each day fixing MySQL corruption problems.
<FONT

 size=2>
<FONT

 size=2>|| i don't have the knowledge
 to parse this, or to relate it to the foregoing....
<FONT

 size=2>
<SPAN

 class=256273719-01032001>
<FONT

 size=2>Fortunately our product has an Oracle API, so we've moved a number of our larger customers to Oracle. Their site performance is a bit slower overall

our products are "optimized" for MySQL -- but their performance no longer completely tanks during peak periods and there is no data corruption at all.
<FONT
size=2>
<FONT
size=2>|| ok......
<SPAN
class=256273719-01032001> So now we've decided to ramp up our Oracle usage (this is one of the reasons I was hired) but since we are a young and relatively cash-poor company the Mucky-mucks are hesitant about Oracle's cost. But then we show them what MySQL is doing to our hosting environment and they become stressed out about losing customers. The "between a rock and a hard place" scenario has sent them into paroxysms of fear, because they realize they might actually have to quit using free stuff and start spending money to keep up with the growing demand for the company's products. They long for the good old days of a couple of years ago when there were no customers, lots of venture capital, and the newly-created products ran great on E-machines, Linux, and MySQL.
<SPAN
class=256273719-01032001>
<FONT
size=2>I guess you can say that we're suffering through the pain of transitioning from an internet startup to a mature, growing company with a seemingly bright future. It is not unlike going through puberty.
<FONT
size=2>
<FONT
size=2>|| The metaphor seems to indicate that as we get older, our hardware and uptime increase.
<EG>
<SPAN
class=256273719-01032001> I, of course, seem to have skipped the maturation process altogether and like most males my age I am not young, but am still immature. I rather enjoy it.
<SPAN
class=256273719-01032001>
<SPAN
class=256273719-01032001>--Walt Weaver
<SPAN
class=256273719-01032001> Bozeman, Montana, USA

-----Original Message-----From: Mohan, Ross [mailto:MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com]Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 8:15 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Oracle's Updates Subscription Service Interesting stuff. (Especially about the ruminants.) When you say mysql does not scale,
 have you run into hard walls? if so, what is the data size, or is it the transaction/activity rate
 that tanks....i'd be interested in hearing where, if at all, you are "hitting the knee".
 
 I'd love to get out there someday. Absolutely beautiful country.....
 
 thanks for the snapshot!

      <FONT face="Times New Roman" 
      size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Weaver, Walt 
      [mailto:wweaver_at_rightnow.com]Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 
      1:01 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
      ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Oracle's Updates Subscription 
      Service
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001>Well Ross, Our campus is out in the country (just 
      about everywhere in Montana is out in the country) and we are, indeed, 
      surrounded by docile ruminants. I'd like to say that during our off-time 
      we go out and gaze lovingly at their udders, but there are other things we 
      prefer to gaze at lovingly.
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001> 
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001>Of course, we have no problems doing online dairy 
      backups around here. :>)
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001> 
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001>We use MySQL here and yes it's tunable. There's 
      even word out on the street that soon MySQL may support the concept of a 
      transaction. What a concept.
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001> 
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001>MySQL has its place, but it's causing us no end 
      of pain here. It doesn't scale well enough to support what we're doing. 
      That's why we're painfully biting the bullet and paying the big bucks for 
      Oracle.
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001> 
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001>--Walt Weaver
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001>  Bozeman, Montana, USA
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001> 
      <SPAN 
      class=729564917-28022001> 
      
        <FONT face=Tahoma 
        size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Mohan, Ross 
        [mailto:MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com]Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 
        2001 8:51 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
        ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Oracle's Updates Subscription 
        Service
        Walt, you have just shattered my picture of you as a 
        gentle man surrounded by docile ruminants, never 
        uddering a discouraging word. 
        Yes, it's amazing, the price of the software. My line to 
        folks is: "For your money, Oracle is the best 
        database...if it were my money, it would be 
        almost anything but.." 
        MySQL *is* tunable.....could be fun.... 
        -----Original Message----- From: 
        Weaver, Walt [<A 
        href="mailto:wweaver_at_rightnow.com">mailto:wweaver_at_rightnow.com] 
        Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:21 AM 
        To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L 
        Subject: Oracle's Updates Subscription Service 
        
        Say, is it just me or has the cost of the Updates 
        Subscription Service gone up considerably in the 
        past six months or so? 
        We're currently pricing out what it'll cost us to 
        purchase 8.1.7 Standard Edition and the numbers 
        we're getting are a heck of a lot higher than they <FONT 
        size=2>were in November. 
        Has the cost of CD-ROM's gone up that much? Is the 
        economy now in an inflationary period? Where's 
        Allen Greenspan when you need him? 
        Whatever happened to those hazy, golden, halcyon days 
        when upgrades were included in product 
        support? 
        Sometimes, Oracle just sucks. I'm seriously considering 
        getting on track for a MySQL 
        certification.   :>) 
        --Walt Weaver   Bozeman, 
        Montana, USA -- Please 
        see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: <A target=_blank 
        href="http://www.orafaq.com">http://www.orafaq.com <FONT 
        size=2>-- Author: Weaver, Walt <FONT 
        size=2>  INET: wweaver_at_rightnow.com 
        Fat City Network Services    -- (858) 
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Received on Thu Mar 01 2001 - 15:47:48 CST