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Home -> Community -> Mailing Lists -> Oracle-L -> RE: hmmm.....
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I was thinking tshirt.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Housholder [mailto:housholder_at_ualfltctr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 12:41 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: hmmm.....
ha...poster material!
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
Pierce
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 7:20 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
DT-
Great example of the elitist techno-engineer-purist mentality
(as opposed to the populist mass-market mentality)!
thanks,
ep
On 26 Oct 2000, at 16:50, Dennis Taylor wrote:
Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:50:37 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> A little rude, but it rings a bell.... > > http://www.jeigh.com/werk/admin/
--- lf from "white privilege" Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:05:15 -0700 totn_at_npr.org Juan, I've long enjoyed your public radio work, and especially enjoy it when you say "hold on a second", then use pithy questions to unravel the illogic of a spinmeister, or deflate some bag of hot air that you are interviewing. Leftist establishmentarians, at least those wrapped in the hypnotic cocoon of their own lack of rational and spiritual self-examination, are desperately frightened that the people (as in "of the, by the, for the") are going to be liberated from the monopoly that the liberal cliques have built within public education. The proverbial emperor is about to be seen as having little or no clothing. (see http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/BIOS/lipset.html , http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/lipset.html , --- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393040984 excerpt: Book Description Two of America's leading political sociologists explore a phenomenon of American political exceptionalism: the failure of the socialist movement in the United States. Parties calling themselves Socialist, Social-Democratic, Labor, or Communist have been major forces in every democratic country in the world, yet they have played a surprisingly insignificant role in American politics. Why the United States, the most developed capitalist industrial society and hence, ostensibly, fertile ground for socialism, should constitute an exception has been a critical question of American history and political development. In this probing work the authors draw on rich contrasts with other English-speaking countries and extensive comparisons within the United States at the state and city levels, eschewing conventional explanations of socialism's demise to present a fuller understanding of how multiple factors--political structure, American values, and the split between the Socialist party and mainstream unions--combined to seal socialism's fate. Further chapters examine the distinctive character of American trade unions, immigration and the fragmentation of the American working class, socialist strategies, and repression, concluding with a penetrating analysis of American political exceptionalism up to the present day. --- http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/novak.html , http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465013708 ) My wife (a spanish national of the minority catalan ethnic group) recently pointed out to me that even though the spanish political system was dominated by socialism for over a decade, they have a very effective school voucher program there. As a progressive-populist from a liberal background, I've become rapidly disillusioned with the propaganda of (anti-religious) liberal extremists as the educational testing & voucher debate unfolds. Paradoxically, as a member of what is called the "religious left", I end up having to support, on principle, the conservative elements of religious life in american society due to the prejudices of leftists and liberals. When one of your guests says that the voucher movement is dangerous because it is seeking a "beach head" for conservatism in the inner-city/minority communities that are the most dissatisfied with the performance of the public education system, I am amazed and disgusted by the liberal bias. As some of the public participants on your program noted, the liberal academic on your panel seems to have come from another planet than the one inhabited by actual parents and teachers. In the "real world", the public education system has *long* been a "beach head", and more, for a failed, dysfunctional leftist-socialist agenda. I seems extremely ironic that educational leftism has ended up as a vestige of white privilege which is promoted primarily, but not exclusively, by white suburbanites! Inner cities are an unpleasant reminder of the failures of social- engineering programs that are based on leftist ideology. It is amazing how the (supposed) "academic" apologists for the elitist liberal public education "agenda" are incapable of taking responsibility for the moral, ethical, philosophical and practical failures of their ideology. The cynical political calculus they promote contains a subtext indicating that as long as the dominant culture in the suburbs can send its kids to public schools that are "good enough", we can let the "unworthy" people in inner cities rot under decrepit pubic education systems, while simultaneously overlooking the highly unprincipled exclusion of conservatives and religious perspectives from the democratic processes involving public education. Liberal social engineering programs are premised on the idea that a liberal "elite" (which is really an atheist priesthood), supported by public funding, will dictate an "enlightened" ideology to the masses. No wonder parents and community don't want to participate more in public education. Why would people want to conform to the dysfunctional power arrangements implied in the politics of public education? The arrogance of the "experts" (such as your guest), that come out of liberal academia becomes all the more obvious when it becomes apparent that they think the deception and lies that they have been long advocating are going to be swallowed by the people for much longer. The assumption that they can keep deceiving people about the glaring conflict of interest they have in maintaining the bureaucracy by using specialized terminology and "research" (frequently just obscurantist, fashionable nonsense) is incredible. The supposedly "enlightened" liberal ideology contains a "dangerous" form of quasi-atheism, at least to the extent that it is *silently* premised on excluding religion from public life. The *real* "great danger" is that the bureaucratic dictatorship that leftists and liberals have tried to establish in education and social work for several generations may actually be scrutinized by the people in terms of its moral, ethical and practical failures. *Of course* allowing more families to take their own tax dollars back in order to participate in private (or religious) schools is a giant threat to the liberal establishment's power structure. Conservative perspectives uphold the need for ethical/spiritual values in *public* life. Leftist establishmentarian perspectives tend to be hostile to the idea that "diversity" should include tolerance of even the suggestion that religious values can play a creative, dynamic role in *public* life. A spiritually maturing society that seeks love, healing, transformation, atonement, redemption and enlightenment through nearness to "the sacred" doesn't need to be coddled by elitist pseudo- scientific "experts" and all the incompetent bureaucrats and corrupt politicians bobbing in their philosophical wake. Its time to let *true* democracy work. If that means that the people will have to be trusted with responsibility, and that the dictatorial liberal bureaucrats will have to let the people find out if alternatives work or not, so be it. I would much rather allow a diverse range of education options and experiments (including those that are supportive of educational perspectives framed in terms of conservative and religious values), than see the corruption involved in liberal public education continue, unexamined. Warm regards, Eric D. Pierce Database Analyst California State Univeristy, Sacramento ------------------------------------------------------ web references: http://www.npr.org/programs/totn - http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/inside ---- http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/steele_1000.html ( http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/steele.html ) - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/finn_1000.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/peterson_1000.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/peterson_0500.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/moe_0900.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/finn_0400.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hoxby_0300.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/walberg_0200.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hill_1299.html - http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hirsch_1199.html ---- http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/november97/patterson_11-13.html excerpt: ... ORLANDO PATTERSON: ... the situation itself is one in which there is not a simple movement, harmonious movement. There is a change-- positive change is always accompanied by friction; however, our perception of what's happening is also paradoxical in the sense that both the right and the left, as well as the Afro-American leadership, all have strong interest in perceiving the situation as in negative terms. DAVID GERGEN: Tell me more about that. That's really-- ORLANDO PATTERSON: Well, for the right wants to castigate the government for the failures of its--all its programs on behalf of the poor, the Afro-American poor. It makes sense they exaggerate the problem to show how we're losing ground because of the horrendous government interference in policies, so that welfare dependency and so on is increasing and it's increasing because of rotten government policies. For the left, the liberal group, exaggerating the problem, emphasizing that America is chronically racist seems--is mistakenly believed that this will keep the pressure up for government to intervene even more. And the criticism here is just the opposite of the right, which is that things are bad because the government hasn't gone far enough, or there's still, the place is still chronically racist, so there's still a need for more government intervention. And for Afro-American leadership emphasizing racism as being--America as irredeemably racist--enhances their broker role, obviously, and again mistakenly is based on the view that by presenting an image of almost no progress, you will increase the possibility of greater intervention. And it's also partly due to the tragic commitment to the ideology of the victim, a very deterministic view, which I'm afraid most Afro-American leadership has adopted, which tends to assume that by perceiving of Afro-Americans as victims you increase the chance of intervention on their behalf. Now, unfortunately, this worked. This is the strategy of the 60's. It's interesting that the great Supreme Court decision, which struck down school segregation, was based on a determinist view, i.e., social scientists were brought in to show that it created victims, rather than the view that this is the right thing to do. ... ---- http://www.meaning.org/fem/frame_who.html - http://www.tikkun.org/ - (Robert Reich's web site:) http://www.epn.org/issues/vouchers.html - http://www.epn.org/links/edlinks.html Robert Reich on "Progressive Vouchers": http://www.prospect.org/columns/reich/reich-r-000908.html - http://www.prospect.org/archives/V11-14/reich-r.html ============ misc stuff: http://www.educationpolicy.org/files/neaftbk/book0003.htm#I13 http://www.epn.org/index.html - http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/org/CURP-1.html - http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/subjects/education-1.html http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/full_cite/47.html - http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=1132 5-10-00 In a city very familiar with the squabble that accompanies education policy, Boston is an appropriate setting for Judy Burnette, an 11-year veteran of the parent choice movement. As Program Development Coordinator for Northeastern University's Urban Law and Public Policy Institute (ULPPI), Burnette's voice joins a growing faction of minorities who support parent choice reforms like school vouchers, although the "face" of the voucher movement still tends to be white, upper-class, religious conservatives. "People will say to me, 'How can you be black and support vouchers?'" Burnette says. "But the real goal should be high-quality education, however it can happen." by Maggie Adams (more info similar to the above): http://reason.com/opeds/ml030200.html [note: { http://reason.com/whatThey.html } "Reason magazine...makes the best case for practical libertarianism. Well-written and - researched articles delve into the specifics of economics and politics, offering alternatives and critiques." - The Millennium Whole Earth Catalog http://reason.com/Bio/postrel.html ] and: http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=1104 (the list of below links is from: http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?cat=4 ) "City Schools and City Politics: Institutions and Leadership in Pittsburgh, Boston, and St. Louis": http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=161 "Savage Inequalities": http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=1117 W.J. Wilson: http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=1110 ============ http://www.edweek.org/context/topics/issuespage.cfm?id=30 - http://www.rethinkingschools.org/ -------(linked from EPN) anti-voucher stuff: http://www.pfaw.org/issues/education/milwaukee.shtml - (black activist accuses white pro-voucher conservatives of hijacking the issues:) http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories/reprints/polly112798.htm ------------------------ technology and education reform (Bob Metcalf): http://www.internet2.edu/ http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcalfe/981026bm.htm http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcalfe/981109bm.htm ---end--- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Patrick Housholder INET: housholder_at_ualfltctr.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). ------_=_NextPart_001_01C04367.85C82F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableReceived on Tue Oct 31 2000 - 12:25:05 CST
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<TITLE>RE: hmmm.....</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I was thinking tshirt.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Patrick Housholder [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:housholder_at_ualfltctr.com">mailto:housholder_at_ualfltctr.com=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 12:41 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: hmmm.....</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>ha...poster material!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Patrick</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Patrick Housholder</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sr. Staff Programmer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>United Airlines Flight Training Center</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Denver CO</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Pierce</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 7:20 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>DT-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Great example of the elitist techno-engineer-purist =
mentality</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(as opposed to the populist mass-market =
mentality)!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>thanks,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ep</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On 26 Oct 2000, at 16:50, Dennis Taylor wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date sent: =
Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:50:37 = -0800</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>To: = Multiple = recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> A little rude, but it rings a bell....</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> <A HREF=3D"http://www.jeigh.com/werk/admin/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.jeigh.com/werk/admin/</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>---</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>lf from "white privilege"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date sent: =
Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:05:15 = -0700</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>totn_at_npr.org</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Juan,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I've long enjoyed your public radio work, and =
especially enjoy it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>when you say "hold on a second", then use =
pithy questions to unravel the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>illogic of a spinmeister, or deflate some bag of hot =
air that you are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>interviewing.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Leftist establishmentarians, at least those wrapped =
in the hypnotic</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>cocoon of their own lack of rational and spiritual =
self-examination, are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>desperately frightened that the people (as in =
"of the, by the, for the")</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>are going to be liberated from the monopoly that the =
liberal cliques have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>built within public education. The proverbial =
emperor is about to be seen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>as having little or no clothing.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>(see <A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/BIOS/lipset.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/BIOS/lipset.html</A> = ,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/lipset.ht= ml" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002= /lipset.html</A> ,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>---</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393040984" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393040984</A><= /FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>excerpt:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> Book Description</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> Two of America's leading political =
sociologists explore a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> phenomenon of American political =
exceptionalism: the failure of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> the socialist movement in the United =
States. Parties calling</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> themselves Socialist, =
Social-Democratic, Labor, or Communist have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> been major forces in every democratic =
country in the world, yet</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> they have played a surprisingly =
insignificant role in American</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> politics. Why the United States, the =
most developed capitalist</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> industrial society and hence, =
ostensibly, fertile ground for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> socialism, should constitute an =
exception has been a critical</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> question of American history and =
political development. In this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> probing work the authors draw on rich =
contrasts with other</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> English-speaking countries and =
extensive comparisons within the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> United States at the state and city =
levels, eschewing conventional</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> explanations of socialism's demise to =
present a fuller understanding of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> how multiple factors--political =
structure, American values, and the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> split between the Socialist party and =
mainstream unions--combined to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> seal socialism's fate. Further chapters =
examine the distinctive</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> character of American trade unions, =
immigration and the fragmentation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> of the American working class, =
socialist strategies, and repression,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> concluding with a penetrating analysis =
of American political</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> exceptionalism up to the present =
day.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>---</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/novak.htm= l" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002= /novak.html</A> ,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465013708" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465013708</A> = )</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>My wife (a spanish national of the minority catalan =
ethnic group)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>recently pointed out to me that even though the =
spanish political</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>system was dominated by socialism for over a decade, =
they have a very</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>effective school voucher program there.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As a progressive-populist from a liberal background, =
I've become</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>rapidly disillusioned with the propaganda of =
(anti-religious) liberal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>extremists as the educational testing & voucher =
debate unfolds.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Paradoxically, as a member of what is called the =
"religious left", I end</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>up having to support, on principle, the conservative =
elements of religious</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>life in american society due to the prejudices of =
leftists and liberals.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>When one of your guests says that the voucher =
movement is dangerous</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>because it is seeking a "beach head" for =
conservatism in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>inner-city/minority communities that are the most =
dissatisfied with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the performance of the public education system, I am =
amazed and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>disgusted by the liberal bias. As some of the public =
participants on your</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>program noted, the liberal academic on your panel =
seems to have come from</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>another planet than the one inhabited by actual =
parents and teachers.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In the "real world", the public education =
system has *long* been a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>"beach head", and more, for a failed, =
dysfunctional leftist-socialist</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>agenda. I seems extremely ironic that educational =
leftism has ended up as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>a vestige of white privilege which is promoted =
primarily, but not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>exclusively, by white suburbanites!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Inner cities are an unpleasant reminder of the =
failures of social-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>engineering programs that are based on leftist =
ideology. It is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>amazing how the (supposed) "academic" =
apologists for the elitist</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>liberal public education "agenda" are =
incapable of taking</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>responsibility for the moral, ethical, philosophical =
and practical</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>failures of their ideology. The cynical political =
calculus they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>promote contains a subtext indicating that as long =
as the dominant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>culture in the suburbs can send its kids to public =
schools that are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>"good enough", we can let the =
"unworthy" people in inner cities rot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>under decrepit pubic education systems, while =
simultaneously</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>overlooking the highly unprincipled exclusion of =
conservatives and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>religious perspectives from the democratic processes =
involving public</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>education.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Liberal social engineering programs are premised on =
the idea that a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>liberal "elite" (which is really an =
atheist priesthood), supported by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>public funding, will dictate an =
"enlightened" ideology to the masses.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No wonder parents and community don't want to =
participate more in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>public education. Why would people want to conform =
to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>dysfunctional power arrangements implied in the =
politics of public</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>education?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The arrogance of the "experts" (such as =
your guest), that come out of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>liberal academia becomes all the more obvious when =
it becomes apparent</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that they think the deception and lies that they =
have been long advocating</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>are going to be swallowed by the people for much =
longer. The assumption</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that they can keep deceiving people about the =
glaring conflict of interest</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>they have in maintaining the bureaucracy by using =
specialized terminology</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and "research" (frequently just =
obscurantist, fashionable nonsense) is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>incredible.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The supposedly "enlightened" liberal =
ideology contains a "dangerous" form</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of quasi-atheism, at least to the extent that it is =
*silently* premised on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>excluding religion from public life.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The *real* "great danger" is that the =
bureaucratic dictatorship that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>leftists and liberals have tried to establish in =
education and social work</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>for several generations may actually be scrutinized =
by the people in terms</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of its moral, ethical and practical failures. *Of =
course* allowing more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>families to take their own tax dollars back in order =
to participate in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>private (or religious) schools is a giant threat to =
the liberal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>establishment's power structure.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Conservative perspectives uphold the need for =
ethical/spiritual</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>values in *public* life. Leftist establishmentarian =
perspectives tend to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>be hostile to the idea that "diversity" =
should include tolerance of even</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the suggestion that religious values can play a =
creative, dynamic role in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>*public* life.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>A spiritually maturing society that seeks love, =
healing,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>transformation, atonement, redemption and =
enlightenment through</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>nearness to "the sacred" doesn't need to =
be coddled by elitist pseudo-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>scientific "experts" and all the =
incompetent bureaucrats and corrupt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>politicians bobbing in their philosophical =
wake.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Its time to let *true* democracy work. If that means =
that the people will</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>have to be trusted with responsibility, and that the =
dictatorial liberal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>bureaucrats will have to let the people find out if =
alternatives work or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>not, so be it. I would much rather allow a diverse =
range of education</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>options and experiments (including those that are =
supportive of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>educational perspectives framed in terms of =
conservative and religious</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>values), than see the corruption involved in liberal =
public education</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>continue, unexamined.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Warm regards,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eric D. Pierce</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Database Analyst</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>California State Univeristy, Sacramento</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>------------------------------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>web references:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.npr.org/programs/totn" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.npr.org/programs/totn</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/inside" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/inside</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>----</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/steele_1000= .html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/s= teele_1000.html</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>( <A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/steele.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/steele.html</A> = )</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/finn_1000.h= tml" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/f= inn_1000.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/peterson_10= 00.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/p= eterson_1000.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/peterson_05= 00.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/p= eterson_0500.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/moe_0900.ht= ml" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/m= oe_0900.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/finn_0400.h= tml" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/f= inn_0400.html</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hoxby_0300.= html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/h= oxby_0300.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/walberg_020= 0.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/w= alberg_0200.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hill_1299.h= tml" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/h= ill_1299.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hirsch_1199= .html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/h= irsch_1199.html</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/november97/patterson_11-13.ht= ml" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/november97/patterso= n_11-13.html</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>excerpt:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ORLANDO PATTERSON: ... the situation itself is =
one in which there is not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>a simple movement, harmonious movement. There is a =
change-- positive</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>change is always accompanied by friction; however, =
our perception of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>what's happening is also paradoxical in the sense =
that both the right and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the left, as well as the Afro-American leadership, =
all have strong</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>interest in perceiving the situation as in negative =
terms.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>DAVID GERGEN: Tell me more about that. That's =
really--</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>ORLANDO PATTERSON: Well, for the right wants to =
castigate the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>government for the failures of its--all its programs =
on behalf of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>poor, the Afro-American poor. It makes sense they =
exaggerate the problem</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to show how we're losing ground because of the =
horrendous government</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>interference in policies, so that welfare dependency =
and so on is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>increasing and it's increasing because of rotten =
government policies. For</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the left, the liberal group, exaggerating the =
problem, emphasizing that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>America is chronically racist seems--is mistakenly =
believed that this will</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>keep the pressure up for government to intervene =
even more. And the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>criticism here is just the opposite of the right, =
which is that things are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>bad because the government hasn't gone far enough, =
or there's still, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>place is still chronically racist, so there's still =
a need for more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>government intervention.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>And for Afro-American leadership emphasizing racism =
as being--America as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>irredeemably racist--enhances their broker role, =
obviously, and again</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>mistakenly is based on the view that by presenting =
an image of almost no</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>progress, you will increase the possibility of =
greater intervention. And</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>it's also partly due to the tragic commitment to the =
ideology of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>victim, a very deterministic view, which I'm afraid =
most Afro-American</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>leadership has adopted, which tends to assume that =
by perceiving of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Afro-Americans as victims you increase the chance of =
intervention on their</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>behalf. Now, unfortunately, this worked. This is the =
strategy of the 60's.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>It's interesting that the great Supreme Court =
decision, which struck down</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>school segregation, was based on a determinist view, =
i.e., social</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>scientists were brought in to show that it created =
victims, rather than</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the view that this is the right thing to do. =
...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.meaning.org/fem/frame_who.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.meaning.org/fem/frame_who.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.tikkun.org/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.tikkun.org/</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(Robert Reich's web site:)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.epn.org/issues/vouchers.html" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.epn.org/issues/vouchers.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.epn.org/links/edlinks.html" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.epn.org/links/edlinks.html</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Robert Reich on "Progressive =
Vouchers":</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.prospect.org/columns/reich/reich-r-000908.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.prospect.org/columns/reich/reich-r-000908.h= tml</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.prospect.org/archives/V11-14/reich-r.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.prospect.org/archives/V11-14/reich-r.html</= A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> misc stuff:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.educationpolicy.org/files/neaftbk/book0003.htm#I13" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.educationpolicy.org/files/neaftbk/book0003.= htm#I13</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A HREF=3D"http://www.epn.org/index.html" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.epn.org/index.html</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/org/CURP-1.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/org/CURP-1.html</A></FONT>=
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/subjects/education-1.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/subjects/education-1.html<= /A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/full_cite/47.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/full_cite/47.html</A></FON= T>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1132" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1132</= A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> 5-10-00</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> In a city very familiar with the squabble that =
accompanies</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> education policy, Boston is an appropriate =
setting for Judy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Burnette, an 11-year veteran of the parent =
choice movement. As</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Program Development Coordinator for =
Northeastern University's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Urban Law and Public Policy Institute =
(ULPPI), Burnette's voice</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> joins a growing faction of minorities who =
support parent choice</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> reforms like school vouchers, although the =
"face" of the voucher</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> movement still tends to be white, =
upper-class, religious</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> conservatives. "People will say to me, =
'How can you be black and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> support vouchers?'" Burnette says. =
"But the real goal should be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> high-quality education, however it can =
happen." by Maggie Adams</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> (more info similar to the above):</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://reason.com/opeds/ml030200.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://reason.com/opeds/ml030200.html</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> [note: { <A =
HREF=3D"http://reason.com/whatThey.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://reason.com/whatThey.html</A> } "Reason = magazine...makes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> the best case for practical =
libertarianism. Well-written and -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> researched articles delve into the =
specifics of economics and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> politics, offering alternatives and =
critiques."</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> - The Millennium Whole Earth =
Catalog</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://reason.com/Bio/postrel.html" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://reason.com/Bio/postrel.html</A> ]</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> and: <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1104" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1104</= A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> (the list of below links is from:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?cat=3D4" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?cat=3D4</A> = )</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> "City Schools and City =
Politics:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Institutions and Leadership =
in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Pittsburgh, Boston, and St. =
Louis":</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D161" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D161</A></FON= T>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> "Savage =
Inequalities":</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1117" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1117</A></FO= NT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> W.J. Wilson:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1110" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1110</A></FO= NT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.edweek.org/context/topics/issuespage.cfm?id=3D30" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.edweek.org/context/topics/issuespage.cfm?id= =3D30</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.rethinkingschools.org/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.rethinkingschools.org/</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-------(linked from EPN) anti-voucher stuff:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.pfaw.org/issues/education/milwaukee.shtml" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.pfaw.org/issues/education/milwaukee.shtml</= A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(black activist accuses white pro-voucher =
conservatives of hijacking the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>issues:)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories/reprints/polly112798.= htm" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories/reprints/po= lly112798.htm</A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>technology and education reform (Bob Metcalf):</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.internet2.edu/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.internet2.edu/</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcalfe/981026b= m.htm" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcal= fe/981026bm.htm</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcalfe/981109b= m.htm" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcal= fe/981109bm.htm</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>---end---</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.orafaq.com" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.orafaq.com</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Author: Eric D. Pierce</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fat City Network Services -- (858) =
538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>San Diego, =
California -- Public Internet = access / Mailing Lists</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------= -----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an =
E-Mail message</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of =
'ListGuru') and in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB =
ORACLE-L</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed =
from). You may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>also send the HELP command for other information =
(like subscribing).</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
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