RE: Datafiles on NFS mount

From: Satar Naghshineh <Satar.Naghshineh_at_irvine.mellesgriot.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:02:49 -0700
Message-Id: <10660.120236@fatcity.com>

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Back then they had the fiber enabled filers as well. The information I posted was straight from the horse's mouth from almost 2 years ago. I mean this guy drives the database market for NetApp (it doesn't get any higher than that).

If things have changed since my meeting with him, then so be it. As far as Yahoo goes, do you know exactly how they are set up and what the filers are really used for?

Regards,
Satar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha [SMTP:gajav_at_yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 9:01 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: Datafiles on NFS mount
>
> Dear list,
>
> I am not so sure whether that claim is true. In fact quite to
> the contrary. Almost all of Yahoo runs on Net Apps., with
> literally 1000s of e-mail users and other web-users it portrays
> an OLTP environment. There are many other sites that use Net
> Apps.
>
> If any there some issues with D/W environments in the past 2
> years. With the introduction of the F840 and F840c, that is now
> a moot point, as it is 100% fiber-enabled, and both OLTP and D/W
> are supported without any issues. The issue with performance
> comes about only when the required network infrastructure is not
> put in place. Otherwise, it is as reliable as a regular
> filesystem (NFS 2.0 and 3.0) are significantly more reliable
> since they use TCP for their communications instead of UDP.
>
> Net Apps. have also come a long way in supporting enterprise
> class storage (upto 12 Tb) on a F840c and the performance on
> these appliances have come a long way. They are definitely a key
> player in the future storage market and their Oracle market
> share is growing.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gaja
>
>
> --- Satar Naghshineh <Satar.Naghshineh_at_irvine.mellesgriot.com>
> wrote:
> > I held a meeting with NetApp's Director of Database Marketing.
> > He was in
> > charge of justifying why NetApp filers were a perfect solution
> > for Oracle
> > databases. I don't know if the situation changed from 2 years
> > ago, but he
> > stated that he didn't want OLTP databases to be running on
> > their filers
> > because of performance problems that the customers might
> > experience. He
> > insisted that their solution is perfect for DSS and DW
> > databases. If your
> > company has the money to purchase a netapp filer (along with
> > their
> > over-priced hard drives) and is in a Mix environment (NT and
> > Unix), then
> > NetApp is a good solution. One thing I liked about NetApp was
> > their ease of
> > database administration.
> >
> > By the way, isn't a "hard lockup" considered a problem with
> > NetApp?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Satar
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tom Tyson [SMTP:tomtysonjr_at_yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 3:56 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > > Subject: RE: Datafiles on NFS mount
> > >
> > > About 6 months ago on OTN there was an article discussing an
> > > implimentation of
> > > Oracle using a NetApp servers using NFS mounts. The
> > implementation was
> > > using a
> > > modified NFS client done by VA Linux. There was some 500
> > databases
> > > running
> > > with the datafiles residing on the NetApp. I wouldn't
> > typically put a
> > > datafile
> > > on a NFS mount, but after reading this I felt a little more
> > comfortable
> > > with
> > > trying this out. Since then, I have tried this out on a
> > HPUX-11 system
> > > running
> > > 8.1.6 EE, and have had no problems with it.. even had a hard
> > lockup on the
> > > Netapp and all was well after restarting the netapp and
> > database server.
> > >
> > > Tom Tyson
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Satar Naghshineh
> > <Satar.Naghshineh_at_irvine.mellesgriot.com> wrote:
> > > > I researched this same subject roughly two years ago, and
> > I learned that
> > > > Oracle does not support NFS datafiles. However, they do
> > support/certify
> > > some
> > > > vendors of NFS systems (Filers), such as NetApp.
> > > >
> > > > Did you consider raping/bastardizing the other server's
> > available hard
> > > > drives to add more disk space to the Oracle server? Or you
> > can NFS Mount
> > > the
> > > > other server and move static files and old backups.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Satar
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: John Kanagaraj [SMTP:JKanagaraj_at_mfi.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:26 PM
> > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > > > > Subject: Re: Datafiles on NFS mount
> > > > >
> > > > > > Is Oracle 8.1.6 capable of creating and using a
> > datafile
> > > > > > on an NFS-mounted disk on another machine? We have two
> > > > > > Sun machines (OS block size is 8k on both); the
> > machine running
> > > > > > Oracle is short on disk, while there is plenty
> > available on the
> > > > > > second machine. We are planning to purchase another
> > larger machine,
> > > > > > but in the meantime would like to get by for a short
> > period without
> > > > > > investing more in the present machines. We are not
> > using hot backups
> > > > > > (it's a small datawarehouse). What problems occur when
> > either of the
> > > > > > machines is rebooted?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > >
> > > > > AFAIK, Oracle does NOT support NFS based datafiles. My
> > understanding
> > > is
> > > > > that this is because there is no guarantee that the
> > write request made
> > > > > to the local OS is complete when the remote OS is the
> > one that
> > > performs
> > > > > it. The local OS returns a positive signal once the
> > request is
> > > > > acknowledged, but not necessarily completed by the
> > remote OS. I
> > > wouldn't
> > > > > do it - and Oracle will not support it...
> > > > >
> > > > > John Kanagaraj
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
> > > http://im.yahoo.com/
> > > --
> > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> > > --
> > > Author: Tom Tyson
> > > INET: tomtysonjr_at_yahoo.com
> > >
> > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858)
> > 538-5051
> > > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access /
> > Mailing Lists
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail
> > message
> > > to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru')
> > and in
> > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).
> > You may
> > > also send the HELP command for other information (like
> > subscribing).
> >
>
>
> =====
> Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha
> Director, Storage Management Products, Quest Software Inc.
> Office : (972)-304-1170, E-mail : gajav_at_yahoo.com
>
> Author - Oracle Tuning 101 by Osborne McGraw-Hill
> "Opinions and views expressed are my own and not of Quest"
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha
> INET: gajav_at_yahoo.com
>
> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

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Back then they had = the fiber enabled filers as well. The information I posted was straight = from the horse's mouth from almost 2 years ago. I mean this guy drives = the database market for NetApp (it doesn't get any higher than that). =

If things have = changed since my meeting with him, then so be it. As far as Yahoo goes, = do you know exactly how they are set up and what the filers are really = used for?

Regards, Satar

</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =

SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha = [SMTP:gajav_at_yahoo.com]
 Sent:   Wednesday, October 25, 2000 9:01 PM To:     Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:       = RE: Datafiles on NFS mount

Dear list,

I am not so sure whether that claim is = true. In fact quite to
 the contrary. Almost all of Yahoo = runs on Net Apps., with

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">literally 1000s of e-mail users and =
other web-users it portrays</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">an OLTP environment. There are many =

other sites that use Net
 Apps.

If any there some issues with D/W = environments in the past 2
 years.  With the introduction of = the F840 and F840c, that is now
 a moot point, as it is 100% = fiber-enabled, and both OLTP and D/W are supported without any issues. The = issue with performance
 comes about only when the required = network infrastructure is not
 put in place. Otherwise, it is as = reliable as a regular

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">filesystem (NFS 2.0 and 3.0) are =
significantly more reliable</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">since they use TCP for their =

communications instead of UDP.

Net Apps. have also come a long way in = supporting enterprise
 class storage (upto 12 Tb) on a F840c = and the performance on
 these appliances have come a long = way. They are definitely a key
 player in the future storage market = and their Oracle market
 share is growing.

Cheers,

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Gaja</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

--- Satar Naghshineh = <Satar.Naghshineh_at_irvine.mellesgriot.com> wrote: > I held a meeting with NetApp's = Director of Database Marketing.
 > He was in > charge of justifying why NetApp = filers were a perfect solution
 > for Oracle > databases. I don't know if the = situation changed from 2 years
 > ago, but he > stated that he didn't want OLTP = databases to be running on
 > their filers > because of performance problems = that the customers might
 > experience. He > insisted that their solution is = perfect for DSS and DW
 > databases. If your > company has the money to = purchase a netapp filer (along with > their > over-priced hard drives) and is = in a Mix environment (NT and
 > Unix), then > NetApp is a good solution. One = thing I liked about NetApp was

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; their ease of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; database administration.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; By the way, isn't a &quot;hard =

lockup" considered a problem with

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; NetApp?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Satar</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; -----Original =

Message-----
 > > = From:       Tom Tyson = [SMTP:tomtysonjr_at_yahoo.com]
 > > = Sent:       Wednesday, October 25, 2000 = 3:56 AM
 > > To: Multiple recipients of = list ORACLE-L
 > > Subject:    = RE: Datafiles on NFS mount
 > > > > About 6 months ago on OTN = there was an article discussing an > > implimentation of > > Oracle using a NetApp = servers using NFS mounts.  The

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; implementation was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; using a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; modified NFS client done by =

VA Linux.  There was some 500

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; databases</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; running</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; with the datafiles residing =

on the NetApp.  I wouldn't

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; typically put a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; datafile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; on a NFS mount, but after =

reading this I felt a little more

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; comfortable</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; trying this out.&nbsp; =

Since then, I have tried this out on a

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; HPUX-11 system</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; running</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; 8.1.6 EE, and have had no =

problems with it.. even had a hard > lockup on the > > Netapp and all was well = after restarting the netapp and

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; database server.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; Tom Tyson</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; --- Satar Naghshineh</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; =

<Satar.Naghshineh_at_irvine.mellesgriot.com> wrote: > > > I researched this same = subject roughly two years ago, and > I learned that > > > Oracle does not = support NFS datafiles. However, they do

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; support/certify</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; vendors of NFS systems =

(Filers), such as NetApp. 
 > > > > > > Did you consider = raping/bastardizing the other server's > available hard > > > drives to add more = disk space to the Oracle server? Or you

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; can NFS Mount</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; other server and move =

static files and old backups.

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Satar </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =

Message-----
 > > > > From:   = John Kanagaraj [SMTP:JKanagaraj_at_mfi.com] > > > > Sent:   = Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:26 PM > > > > = To:     Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > = Subject:        Re: Datafiles on NFS = mount
 > > > > > > > > > Is Oracle = 8.1.6 capable of creating and using a > datafile > > > > > on an = NFS-mounted disk on another machine? We have two > > > > > Sun machines = (OS block size is 8k on both); the > machine running > > > > > Oracle is = short on disk, while there is plenty > available on the > > > > > second = machine. We are planning to purchase another > larger machine, > > > > > but in the = meantime would like to get by for a short > period without > > > > > investing = more in the present machines. We are not > using hot backups > > > > > (it's a = small datawarehouse). What problems occur when > either of the > > > > > machines is = rebooted?

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Bill,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; AFAIK, Oracle =

does NOT support NFS based datafiles. My

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; understanding</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that this is =

because there is no guarantee that the > write request made > > > > to the local OS = is complete when the remote OS is the

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; one that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; performs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it. The local OS =

returns a positive signal once the > request is > > > > acknowledged, but = not necessarily completed by the

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; remote OS. I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; wouldn't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; do it - and =

Oracle will not support it...
 > > > > > > > > John = Kanagaraj

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; =
__________________________________________________</FONT>

> > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk = while you surf!  It's FREE.
 > > <A = HREF=3D"http://im.yahoo.com/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://im.yahoo.com/</A> > > -- > > Please see the official = ORACLE-L FAQ: <A HREF=3D"http://www.orafaq.com" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.orafaq.com</A>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; -- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; Author: Tom Tyson</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; INET: =

tomtysonjr_at_yahoo.com
 > > > > Fat City Network = Services    -- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858)

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; 538-5051</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; San Diego, =
California&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Public Internet =

access /

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Mailing Lists</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">---------------------------------------------------------=

-----------
 > > To REMOVE yourself from = this mailing list, send an E-Mail > message > > to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com = (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') > and in > > the message BODY, include a = line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
 > > (or the name of mailing = list you want to be removed from).

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; You may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; also send the HELP command =
for other information (like</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; subscribing).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Director, Storage Management =

Products, Quest Software Inc. 
 Office : (972)-304-1170, E-mail : = gajav_at_yahoo.com

Author - Oracle Tuning 101 by Osborne = McGraw-Hill
 "Opinions and views expressed = are my own and not of Quest"

<FONT SIZE=3D2 =

FACE=3D"Arial">__________________________________________________</FONT>=

Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you = surf!  It's FREE.
 <A = HREF=3D"http://im.yahoo.com/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://im.yahoo.com/</A>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please see the official ORACLE-L =
FAQ:</FONT><U> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =

HREF=3D"http://www.orafaq.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.orafaq.com</A> -- Author: Gaja Krishna = Vaidyanatha
   INET: gajav_at_yahoo.com

Fat City Network = Services    -- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) = 538-5051
 San Diego, = California        -- Public Internet = access / Mailing Lists
 <FONT SIZE=3D2 =

FACE=3D"Arial">---------------------------------------------------------=

-----------
 To REMOVE yourself from this mailing = Received on Wed Oct 25 2000 - 17:02:49 CDT