Re: Teradata baned from IOUG???

Robert and Matthew,

Thanks for your responses. This is an attempt at adressing both points of views.

Personally, I didn't want my messages to imply that people working with and for IOUG are bad people that don't do anything good. If that's what came across from my messages, a heartfelt Undskyld is in place here.

I also appreciate the tough choises one has when organising conferences. In fact I do such things myself with our various things like the Database Forum and First Fridays here. When you take on that task you will sooner or later be faced with the following challenge: Big Shot A (BS-A) contacts you and submit a presentation and does not expect to be turned down, since he's wellknown, award-winning, or whatever. Yet it's perhaps not a good or a correct presentation. It happens sooner or later, and it can be tough to turn him down. Especially if there are not enough alternatives. Or if some of the attendees expect to go to the annual pep-talk with the big guy. When it's a big conference with many tracks, you're suddenly faced with the need to accept some presentations that might not have made it had there been enough really good ones (whatever that means).

And yes, it's easy to critisize other's presentations or points of views.

It is also easy to respond to critique by saying "why don't you submit a presentation yourself?" - an answer I've used myself time after time when someone asked why we didn't have a good presentation about this or that in the Danish user group. Nowadays I try not to use that response because there could be many valid reasons. The reason, for instance, that I don't submit stuff for the IOUG-A is that I cannot attend. Neither can most of you guys here on the list since you have been invited to my 42nd birthday party here in Maaloev :). Otherwise, I would have submitted either "You probably don't need RAC" or "Consolidations lead to new SPOFs" or "The stack increases with 1-1.5 new layers per year" or perhaps even something technical stuff. And I would not expect to be accepted just because I have an 8bit character in my last name or for some other reason.

Now, with respect to Rich and personal attacks I think I'd like to repeat the quote I made in one of my messages:

"Lately, there has been a big push to ignore your hit ratio with claims that it is meaningless. This shallow minded view (usually by people who sell a tuning tool) ignores why people look at hit ratios and what they are looking for. This quick tip talk will show you what to look for and why. You will definitely know when, where & why to look at your hit ratio in the future. Show you why your hit ratio matters. How to analyze the hit ratio. Fallacies by those who want to sell you products and tools instead. "

Now, English is not my first language, but I think it's kind of strong language to use in an official abstract for a session? "Shallow minded view", "Fallacies by those who want to sell you products...". Man, I could be wrong, but I smell "Cary and Anjo" here. Don't you? And I'm not sure Rich wrote to these guys personally before submitting his abstract, to adress one of your criticisms, Robert.

Now, most of us know by now that you should ignore the hit ratio. Big deal. But most of us (including me) don't sell tools or products, do we? What we do sell in Miracle is consulting hours, training, license reviews and support, and you can sell so many more consulting hours if you don't use the Wait Interface, but instead focus on various ratios :-))). So is Rich intending to 1) present new and sensational material? 2) go after Cary, Anjo, Mogens and the other idiots that "sell products"? or 3) to protect his consulting business and/or personal reputation?

I don't know. But imagine that I submitted a paper titled "Get Rich" to the IOUG-A - would that be accepted? Yet that's pretty much what Rich has done. So does this set a new precedent for papers being accepted? I doubt it. What would you guys call me if I did that? So yes, in that sense, it's a personal attack. Not on some Rich guy, but on whoever wrote that abstract.

There's another thing that has been bothering me for a while: Out of the 40 user presentations this year at Oracle World, 4 (perhaps more?) were from TUSC. We're talking litterally 100s of submissions, even from people that know much more and are far more skilled at presenting than some of the honored presenters there. Without wanting to start another war on words, those presentations were not neccessarily ground-breaking or revolutionary. So I'm not saying that TUSC people are not good (some of them are, some of them aren't, just like in any other company). I'm just saying that 4 out of 40 is a LOT. And that cannot be because of lack of material from around the globe. Please prove me wrong here.

And that's the kind of thing that causes me (and others, as witnessed on this list) to ask akward questions. In that process, I'm really sorry if I seemed to aim at hardworking volunteers and clever colleagues. That wasn't my intention.

Best regards,

Mogens

Freeman Robert - IL wrote:

> I must admit that I'm a bit tired of the Rich/TUSC bashing here. I've
> written and canned two rather terse responses to personal attacks
> against Rich. If you want to disagree with his position on BHR, go for
> it, I have no problem with that. In fact, I'm not sure I *know* what
> his current position is, and will attend his presentation to find out
> (I suppose I could ask him since I will be at the office tomorrow).
>
> Personal attacks really are pointless. I would APPRECIATE IT if they
> would cease.
>
> Further, I am presenting at IOUG-A this year, TWO times. However, I
> was NOT, repeat NOT, a TUSC employee when I was selected. Why should
> anyone be *excluded* just because of where they work. If I have
> something to say that is considered worthy of presentation, then
> should I be discriminated against just because I work for TUSC?
>
> Of those complaining, I'd be curious if you submitted an abstract
> (even better more than one) and what the rejected topic was.
>
> RF
>
>
> Robert G. Freeman
> Technical Management Consultant
> TUSC - The Oracle Experts www.tusc.com
> 904.708.5076 Cell (It's everywhere that I am!)
> Author of several books you can find on Amazon.com!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adams, Matthew (GECP, MABG, 088130)
> [mailto:MATT.ADAMS_at_APPL.GE.COM]
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:19 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: Teradata baned from IOUG???
>
> If there is a demand, I will be happy to expound at some length
> on the processes by which the papers for our track were chosen,
> but I do believe that a different forum might
> be appropriate, as we are getting a bit far off the main
> topic of how to manage Oracle technology.
>
> We spent last weekend in Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge
> The drive on I-75 from Knoxville, TN up to Lexington, KY and then
> I-64 over to Louisville was quite a drive as well.
>
> Send me an e-mail offline next time your going to
> be in the area and I'll introduce to the very fine products
> of the Bluegrass Brewing Company.
>
> ----
> Matt Adams - GE Appliances - matt.adams_at_appl.ge.com
> We have enough youth.
> How about a fountain of intelligence?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loughmiller, Greg [mailto:Greg.Loughmiller_at_cingular.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:00 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: Teradata baned from IOUG???
>
> go get'm big dawg.... In all honesty, this was educational to me
> as I'm not sure that a lot of people understand the process for
> the selection.. I have learned something today. And once that's
> accomplished, I need to celebrate.. So now I can go home and drink
> beer for the rest of the day:-)
>
> Matt-I65 was really ugly last weekend with the Sunday Ice:-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adams, Matthew (GECP, MABG, 088130)
> [mailto:MATT.ADAMS_at_APPL.GE.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 2:51 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: Teradata baned from IOUG???
>
> Alright, Mogens. I'll stand up here.
>
> I'm one of the two DBA focus area managers (FAMs) for IOUG
> 2003. My fellow
> FAM and abstract reviewers (3 of them) and I are the ones who
> choose this presentation (along with all the others in the DBA
> track).
>
> None of us are employed by TUSC or by Oracle.
>
> You statement: "how certain presentations with the word
> "ratio" and
> something negative in their heading don't make it through the
> selection process, while presentations with the word "ratio"
> and something positive make it through." is technically accurate.
> The only other presentation with the word "ratio" in the title
> was
> rejected. However, there are a number of others presentations
> that fall within this specific area of tuning by a number of
> people,
> including Roger Schrag, Cary Millsap, Jonathan Lewis,
>
> I cannot and will not go into the particulars of why a
> specific presentation was chosen, but I can tell you
> that no weight was given to the employer of the speaker.
>
> ----
> Matt Adams - GE Appliances - matt.adams_at_appl.ge.com
> We have enough youth.
> How about a fountain of intelligence?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mogens Nørgaard [mailto:mln_at_miracleas.dk]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 3:34 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: Re: Teradata baned from IOUG???
>
> Then why this feeling (in other countries, too) that IOUG
> should be called TOUG instead? Funny how certain presentations
> with the word "ratio" and something negative in their heading
> don't make it through the selection process, while
> presentations with the word "ratio" and something positive
> make it through. Funny how an abstract like the following
> nonsense makes it through the process. Just downright funny,
> strange and not very convincing... who in their right mind
> said this was a professional presentation that would be of
> interest to any serious optimiser guy or girl? Somebody must
> have said Aye to this. Are you ready? Here we go:
>
> "Lately, there has been a big push to ignore your hit ratio
> with claims
> that it is meaningless. This shallow minded view (usually by
> people who
> sell a tuning tool) ignores why people look at hit ratios and
> what they
> are looking for. This quick tip talk will show you what to
> look for and
> why. You will definitely know when, where & why to look at
> your hit
> ratio in the future.
> Show you why your hit ratio matters. How to analyze the hit
> ratio.
> Fallacies by those who want to sell you products and tools
> instead. "
>
> Henry Poras wrote:
>
>> Neither is David Teplow (former president of NOUG)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: root_at_fatcity.com [mailto:root_at_fatcity.com]On Behalf
>> Of Daniel W. Fink
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 1:59 PM
>> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>> Subject: Re: Teradata baned from IOUG???
>>
>> I know Stan Yellott is not a TUSC employee. He is the
>> President of RMOUG and a great guy who has worked behind
>> the scenes at many IOUG conferences. He is a tremendous
>> calming influence (as many of us recall from San Diego).
>>
>> I don't think Ian, Mark, Bill, Stephen or Steve are TUSC
>> Employees, unless they have changed jobs recently.
>>
>> Henry Poras wrote:
>>
>>>Anyone know if any of the 10 people running for the Board of Directors for
>>>IOUG is a TUSC employee? Noone claims it in their statements.
>>>
>>>Henry
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:24 PM
>>>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>>>
>>>
>>>me too...
>>>
>>>Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
>>>ineyman_at_perceptron.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:11 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>evidently i'm not the only one who thinks that, interesting.
>>>>
>>>>joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It seems to me that IOUG has become a wholly owned
>>>>>subsidiary of TUSC. TUSC in turn has an incestuous
>>>>>relationship with Oracle. All very cozy.
>>>>>
>>>>>No real complaint about the arrangements. Someone has
>>>>>to step up to the plate if IOUG is going to continue
>>>>>to be a viable organization and in this economic
>>>>>climate few can afford to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Should IOUG be able to survive without Oracle?
>>>>>Probably. Will it be able to survive without Oracle?
>>>>>I doubt it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--- Jonathan Lewis <jonathan_at_jlcomp.demon.co.uk&aamp;ggt;
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It should be possible for the IOUG to live without
>>>>>>Oracle's support. Obviously it would be better
>>>>>>for all concerned if there is some measure of
>>>>>>co-operation, and there's clearly no need for
>>>>>>bloody-minded conflict. But if the IOUG just
>>>>>>keeps doing things that the users want, then
>>>>>>the users should be able to support it in the
>>>>>>complete absence of any input from Oracle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jonathan Lewis
>>>>>>http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Coming soon one-day tutorials:
>>>>>>Cost Based Optimisation
>>>>>>Trouble-shooting and Tuning
>>>>>>Indexing Strategies
>>>>>>(see http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/tutorial.html )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>____UK_______March 19th
>>>>>>____USA_(FL)_May 2nd
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Next Seminar dates:
>>>>>>(see http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/seminar.html )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>____USA_(CA, TX)_August
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Co-operative Oracle Users' FAQ
>>>>>>http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/faq/ind_faq.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>MacGregor, Ian A. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The IOUG cannot live without Oracle's support, but
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oracle can survive
>>>>>>without the IOUG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
>>>>>>http://www.orafaq.net
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>Author: Jonathan Lewis
>>>>>> INET: jonathan_at_jlcomp.demon.co.uk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051
>>>>>>http://www.fatcity.com
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>>>>>>hosting services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>=====
>>>>>Pete Barnett
>>>>>Lead Database Administrator
>>>>>The Regence Group
>>>>>pnbarne_at_regence.com
>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>
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>>>--
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>>>Author: Igor Neyman
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>

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?=
  INET: mln_at_miracleas.dk

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