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Home -> Community -> Mailing Lists -> Oracle-L -> RE: OFF TOPIC: Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls
Hi all,
There were many councils that debated the canon, including two at Nicaea. It is inaccurate to suggest that 325 was in any way decisive. If anything, the council of 397 at Carthage should be regarded as decisive.
Of course the various church fathers had prejudices and agendas, but the question of the cannon was well down the list of things that they argued about. The disagreements about the canon were a symptom, not a cause, of their factionalism.
Most of the other 50+ books were not even on the agenda at Nicaea. They had been excluded long before. Unless "authentic" means something other than "apostolic", the suggestion that any but one or two of the extra-canonical books might have any claim to authenticity is fabulous.
The etymological root for heresy may indeed be cognate for choice, however, that was never its referent, and certainly not in the early church.
There are strong arguments for dating all four gospels prior to 70, not just Mark. Although Matthew and Luke clearly reproduce some abridged material from Mark, they also include much other material and have very different provenance. On internal evidence John's gospel is clearly Palestinian, not Alexandrian.
Qumran was an Essene-like community, not a Zealot one. Many of the dead sea scrolls are sectarian, which is incompatible with a Jerusalem origin. Much of what has been found at Qumran predates the great revolt by 2 centuries.
@ Regards,
@ Steve Adams
@ http://www.ixora.com.au/
@ http://www.christianity.net.au/
-----Original Message-----
From: Boivin, Patrice J [mailto:BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 January 2001 3:00
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC: Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls
Yesterday someone gave a clean history of how the early Church fathers decided what to put into the New Testament and what to leave out.
Here is another version:
... it was in 325CE that the Council of Nicaea met to debate which of many
books would be included in what was to become the New Testament. There is
no doubt that the men present at the Council brought to the task their own
prejudices and agendas, of which we are still reaping the sorry harvest.
Eventually the Council established that only four Gospels would be included
in the New Testament and rejected forever over fifty other books with more
or less equal claim to be considered authentic. (ref. Ayerst and Fisher,
Records of Christianity, Volume I: In the Roman Empire, pp144-146 on the
Council of Nicaea).
"Heresy" is a word that simply meant "choice". They made choices. For some reason these choices are still in effect, despite everything that biblical scholars have unearthed (literally).
The earliest date for the Gospels is about AD 70 (Mark), after Paul had begun his tour of the eastern Mediterranean. Matthew and Luke were built on Mark, John seems to have come from another source, perhaps from the Christian community in Alexandria.
To me Norman Golb's assessment of the Dead Sea Scrolls make more sense, they were just scrolls taken from the Temple library in Jerusalem during the siege of AD 70, then quickly stashed in jars before the Romans could catch them. This was done by the same group who committed at Masada, the zealots (perhaps as in Simon Zelotes). Zealot just means "zealous for the Law", they could have been a reactionary group (probably among many) against Hellenism of the Jewish community under Herod and the Romans.
Regards,
Patrice Boivin
Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)
Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes Technology Services | Services technologiques Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO
E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca <mailto:boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
Ph: (902) 426-4774
-----Original Message----- From: Mohan, Ross [SMTP:MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:41 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC: How do you organize all yourtechnical info !!!
Stephane,
Maybe one day, you'll find the Dead Sea Scrolls!
-----Original Message----- From: Stephane Faroult [ mailto:sfaroult_at_oriole.com <mailto:sfaroult_at_oriole.com> ] Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 12:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: How do you organize all your technical info!!!
Steve, May well be apocryphal, I think that I have read it in Voltaire's 'Dictionnaire Philosophique', which I would definitely not recommend as a theological source ... but I found the parallel with what happens on my desk irresistible. Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Corporation Steve Adams wrote: > Hi All, > > Now there is an apocryphal story, if ever I've heard one! > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com <http://www.orafaq.com> -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: sfaroult_at_oriole.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-LReceived on Tue Jan 09 2001 - 14:46:22 CST
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