Joe,
I am rambling now. I generally agree with everyone on this topic. <=
grin>
The topic of OCP vs non-OCP, whether it is a valid measurement of peo=
ple's
abilities as DBA, etc. comes up every few months, then it dies down.
If people want to pay and pass those exams, they will do it.
If they don't they won't.
I am debating with myself (have been for months) whether to pass the =
SQL
Server 7 exam, so I can have an MCSE piece of paper that I will then =
be able
to upgrade to Windows2000 MCSE... but time is running out on me becau=
se I
think at the end of December MS is "de-certifying" everyone who has "=
just"
NT 4 exams under their belts, even those who have an NT4 MCSE. I fin=
d that
SQL Server exam very hard, it asks questions about things I would not=
expect
to see in regular work environments. Plus we aren't using SQL Server=
here
where I work, so the issue becomes do I want to learn Exchange (ha) o=
r IIS
(ugh) to get that MCSE piece of paper, giving Micro$oft more money in=
the
process. The issue becomes... do I have enough money to spend on the=
se
things, knowing I will have to keep maintaining this parallel accredi=
tation
while doing regular work. It becomes a hobby in some respects. An
expensive one. And I just had to purchase a new oil furnace for my h=
ouse,
there goes CDN$2800 dollars (and the PC I wanted to buy for home!).
I think certification is good for people who want advancement, or swi=
tch
employers, or if you foresee major changes in your environment, but i=
f you
are doing your work already, everything is running smoothly, and you =
can
deal with whatever Oracle throws at you then certification becomes a =
little
redundant. Earning an OCP could perhaps backfire on you if other peo=
ple
feel threatened, or if management decides to pigeon-hole you into a
technical slot with no room for upward mobility. If you are REALLY G=
OOD at
technical stuff, why would they bring you into management ranks. It =
is an
entirely different set of skills.
A lot of people are switching careers and certification sometimes is =
the
only way they can get their foot in the door. But once they are let =
in...
they have to prove themselves and the learning curve is steep, with o=
r
without an OCP. =20
I imagine consultants feel pressured to earn their OCP, securing new
contracts is like having to visit an HR department every few months. =
Every
little bit helps but those who don't have an OCP probably are a littl=
e
annoyed that they have to jump through this hoop when they know they =
could
already to the job properly.=20
In my opinion personality and character have as much to do with peopl=
e's
capabilities and reliability as their technical abilities or what
certificates they can show me. If someone is dedicated, doesn't buck=
le
under pressure (has "staying power" while under fire) and can learn w=
hatever
we throw at them (given reasonable time), then I would pick someone l=
ike
that every time. They are rare enough to find and you can build on t=
hem.
For dedication, you have to look at people's track record, but you ha=
ve to
make allowances for just plain bad luck that does happen sometimes. =
For
personality and character, that's harder to evaluate and it's a never=
ending
debate in HR because people tend to hire people they are comfortable =
with,
which is not always the thing to do -- if an indecisive person hires =
an
indecisive person, you just compounded your problem. Same with peopl=
e who
are too aggressive, two of them together working side by side and you=
have
an organisational problem, they will try to subjugate everything unde=
r their
control. However aggressive people probably tend to hire people who =
will do
what they want them to do, which isn't good in itself either because =
there
are no checks and balances when that is the case. Job interviews are=
really
bad for this reason, they are so prone to "gut feelings" interviewers=
have
about people. Years ago I did some research in post-secondary recrui=
tment
and Microsoft at the time kept track of the people that were rejected=
for
positions, and called them back months later to see where they were w=
orking
and how they were doing, so they could compare whether Microsoft's hi=
ring
process had indeed picked the "best" candidates. Most companies don'=
t
bother to do this (perhaps because they don't have the resources), an=
d so
they depend on job interviews and little technical tests and over tim=
e there
is little improvement in the hiring process. Many companies don't ev=
en
bother doing exit interviews, to find out why things didn't work out =
and to
determine whether there was a bad "fit", or if other problems were th=
e cause
of a person leaving.
I read a good book once, entitled Artists, Craftsmen and Technocrats,=
it
chronicles the rise and fall of an investment bank in the UK. It loo=
ks at
these issues and it is quite entertaining, if you aren't caught in a =
similar
mess. (If you are, I highly recommend www.dilbert.com to help you pr=
eserve
your sanity). The gist of it is: entrepreneurs and creative types f=
ound
businesses, they hire craftsmen to provide stability and to bring in
revenue, then as the organisation grows technocrats get a foot in the=
door.
Technocrats tend to hire only technocrats, so over time you see this
degradation in performance as the balance shifts toward procedures, r=
ules,
management fads, and fault-finding. Innovative types can't stand it =
or
"criticize" their superiors too much so they leave or get fired, craf=
tsmen
get fired or downsized because they are labeled as "inflexible", "too
simplistic" and "stubborn", eventually you have a top-heavy structure=
with
people who all agree with each other (the paper version of the organi=
sation
looks good, so everything is fine) until the whole thing collapses un=
der its
own weight or gets gobbled up by a competitor in a hostile takeover. =
Notice
I said "downsized" only after the technocrats come in, entrepreneuria=
l types
and craftsmen know better than to get rid of craftsmen, the ones who =
are the
bedrock of the company. Craftsmen are people who work long hours wit=
hout
ever mentioning it to other people, who sometimes don't submit claims=
for
overtime because they want the company to succeed, they are the ones =
who
will tend to stick with one company for years and years without jumpi=
ng
ship, they are stable, reliable people. And they provide a good
counterbalance for the more entrepreneurial types, who sometimes go o=
ff on a
tangent have too many ups and downs.
There is even a discussion of psychological tests the author gave to =
the
different people in that company, and what each thought of the others=
. The
whole book is a friendly-to-read presentation of a Masters thesis, it=
reads
a bit like a novel.
Fun book to read. Of course it is a bit of a caricature, but I liked=
the
book a lot, probably the fact that I'm not a technocrat helped.
I guess it was popular, because Amazon says it's out of print:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0773728589/qid=3D976117745/sr=
=3D1-1/105-4
670491-5959100
: ) --> end of rambling
Regards,
Patrice Boivin
Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)
Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des syst=E8mes
Technology Services | Services technologiques
Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique=20
Maritimes Region, DFO | R=E9gion des Maritimes, MPO
E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
> -----Original Message-----
> From:=09Testa, Joe S [SMTP:jstesta_at_dorseyplus.com]
> Sent:=09Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:05 AM
> To:=09Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject:=09WAAYYY OT: RE: FreeOCP
>=20
> save the political correctness, too much of that crap goes on alrea=
dy,
> people are entitled to their opinion whether you or anyone like it =
or not.
> This crap of "what i think is right and what you think is right is =
ok"
> stinks,=20
>=20
> post-modernists suck.
>=20
> joe
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:42 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>=20
>=20
> Come on Rachel, this comment is a little overblown, I
> don't believe that some one who is a OCP DBA does not
> know how to shut down a database. These are things
> some one learns or should learn when they think about
> being a DBA. I am sure this topics are well covered in
> OCP exams. The fact is somebody likes to get certified
> and some people do not. Some body like institution and
> some do not. It is always a choice and everybody
> should respect either stand. Exceptions are on both
> the side.
>=20
> S.Talukder
> Sr.DBA
> Convergys Corporation
> Direct: (513) 748 5086
> Cell:(513) 229 7422
>=20
>=20
> Rachel Carmichael wrote: My point also was that you
> cannot generalize... nothing is ever black and white,
> there are always shades of gray.Yes there are DBAs
> with OCP who are fantastic. There are also DBAs with
> OCP who don't know a thing about a database. I get
> really scared when I see someone post a note "how do I
> shutdown the database" and their signature like has
> OCP in it.>From: "aaaa wwwwww" >Reply-To:
> ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>To: Multiple recipients of list
> ORACLE-L >Subject: RE: FreeOCP>Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000
> 19:25:24 -0800>>Dear Seniors>>Most of U felt bad it
> seems !>>When we are generalising U shouldn't bring
> case by case example>>Rao>-->>On Tue, 05 Dec 2000
> 16:45:22> Rachel Carmichael wrote:> >Jeff,> >>
> >Forgive me for jumping in on your rant, but I didn't
> see the original> >message.> >> >All -> >> >I do love
> this quote from the original email:> >> >"In my humble
> opinion, any OCP DBA with experience is lot better
> than a >OCP> >DBA without experience or an experienced
> DBA without OCP."> >> >Really? Let's see.... I've been
> working as a DBA for 10+ years. I have >met> >DBAs
> with OCP and experience, DBAs with experience and no
> OCP and DBAs >with> >OCP and no experience.> >> >OCP
> does not in and of itself confer anything. You can
> pass the tests and> >never have used the products that
> the tests are about. I passed the 8.0 >to> >8i upgrade
> without ever having worked with RMAN, partitioned
> tables,> >Advanced Queuing, local and global
> partitioned indexes etc -- I hadn't> >worked with 8i
> at ALL. What I *did* have were some hours spent at>
> >conferences listening to people present on these
> topics, and a really >good> >ability to guess on
> standardized tests. I passed the 7.3 to 8.0 upgrade
> >the> >same way.> >> >So I have OCP and it still does
> not mean that I have experience in these> >things.> >>
> >Jeff is right -- what counts is what the person
> knows, not how he/she> >learned it. The best
> explanation I have ever heard was from Michael Abbey>
> >who said "OCP will get you in the door, but it's up
> to you and your> >abilities to keep you there".> >>
> >All OCP does is give upper management a warm and
> fuzzy (and often >incorrect)> >feeling about the
> abilities of the candidate.> >> >I don't look to see
> OCP on a resume before I interview someone. I don't>
> >reject the candidate if it is there, but it doesn't
> get you in the door >to> >see me. Your resume does.>
> >> >End of *MY* rant -- thanks Jeff :)> >> >Rachel> >>
> >>From: Jeffery Stevenson > >>Reply-To:
> ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com> >>To: Multiple recipients of
> list ORACLE-L > >>Subject: RE: FreeOCP> >>Date: Tue,
> 05 Dec 2000 06:41:28 -0800> >>> >> Every person should
> be judged on their own individual merits...a >veteran>
> >>DBA without OCP might have a box at home (or at
> work) where they take >the> >>latest and greatest and
> play with all the new features to figure out how>
> >>they work and see what kind of advantages they
> bring. You could have a >DBA> >>with lots of years of
> experience recorded and an OCP that has just been>
> >>soaking up money in a big contract for a consulting
> firm somewhere (and >not> >>really doing much), but
> they've had lots of time to take the tests >(until>
> >>they passed them all). There are too many variables
> in this world to >judge> >>a situation without getting
> all of the details...keeping that in mind, I> >>cannot
> agree with your viewpoint that an OCP DBA with
> experience is >going> >>to> >>be better than any other
> DBA--every situation is different. When>
> >>interviewing other DBAs, I might make initial
> judgements after reviewing> >>their resume, but
> (unless that resume is really, really bad) I won't
> >rule> >>them out until I've had a chance to talk with
> them. The DBA market is a> >>tight market, why rule
> out any potentially good employee/help based on>
> >>years> >>of experience or a piece of paper? None of
> that can tell me exactly >what> >>kind of heart, will,
> intelligence, common sense, personality, or >learning>
> >>ability a person has. OCP and years of experience
> have definite merits> >>when> >>trying to get HR's
> attention and jacking prices in contracts, but if the>
> >>person behind all that isn't really that good...>
> >>> >> Sorry about the rant, but I just couldn't sit
> back and listen to all> >>this> >>without saying
> something...> >>> >>Jeffery Stevenson> >>Chief
> Databeast Tamer> >>Medical Present Value, Inc.>
> >>Austin, TX> >>> >>-----Original Message----->
> >>Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:51 PM> >>To:
> Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L> >>> >>> >>Hi
> friends!> >> There is a lots of talk about Paper DBAs
> on this message board. With >due> >>respect to all the
> veteran DBAs without OCP and new DBAs with OCP, I
> >would> >>like to make few comments from my own
> personal experience (spanning 9> >>years+> >>in USA,
> Europe and India)> >>> >> I have come across lots of
> long time DBAs with no OCP, who frown on >OCP> >>DBAs.
> Working closely with them, I noticed that these longs
> really count> >>the> >>hours to bill the clients. To
> my dismay, I came across 10+ years Oracle> >>DBAs>
> >>who had no clue about OPS, Partitioning, Snapshots,
> Stand by etc... They> >>have gained experience over
> the years only because the client could not> >>find>
> >>a better alternative.> >>> >> At the same time, in
> the interviews and at work, I come across lots of>
> >>new> >>OCP DBAs who can do the job, but need lots
> support and help from the >other> >>DBAs. (It is sort
> of baby sitting).> >>> >> I was a DBA without OCP for
> long time and I had no problem in finding> >>jobs>
> >>without OCP. After I started preparing for OCP, I
> came to know of so >many> >>things that I did not know
> before. In my humble opinion, any OCP DBA >with>
> >>experience is lot better than a OCP DBA without
> experience or an> >>experienced> >>DBA without OCP.>
> >>> >> OCP helped me as a DBA to understand things
> that I did not know >before.> >>It> >>took lots of
> time, confidence and enthusiasm to be a OCP DBA and
> change >my> >>self in the process.> >>> >> Without
> OCP, I would have been a Pumpkin DBA, doing clueless
> things in >a> >>random and unilateral way. Let's face
> it... OCP or No OCP is a matter of> >>choice. But it
> helps to be OCP than be left-out and looking at SOUR>
> >>GRAPES!!!> >>> >>Rama> >>OCP DBA with experience!>
> >>> >>> >>--> >>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
> http://www.orafaq.com> >>--> >>Author: Rama Malladi>
> >> INET: rmalladi_at_inteliant.com> >>> >>Fat City
> Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858)
> 538-5051> >>San Diego, California -- Public Internet
> access / Mailing Lists>
> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
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> include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L> >>(or the
> name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You
> may> >>also send the HELP command for other
> information (like subscribing).> >>--> >>Please see
> the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com>
> >>--> >>Author: Jeffery Stevenson> >> INET:
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> >Author: Rachel Carmichael> > INET:
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>=20
> __________________________________________________
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>=20
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-
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> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing)=
.
> --=20
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --=20
> Author: Testa, Joe S
> INET: jstesta_at_dorseyplus.com
>=20
> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Li=
Received on Wed Dec 06 2000 - 10:13:45 CST
